Spin off from something TP and Brian talked about in another thread

[Talking Poker]

Actually, I'm pretty sure Brian admitted that he's deposited more money than he's cashed out (as have MOST players), but that's neither here nor there.

It's an ok way of "keeping score," but it's not ideal. I mean, what if I cashed in $500 3 years ago and I now have $200,000 online. If I've never cashed out, that would mean I've put in $500 more than I've taken out, making me a loser by your system, and that's obviously not right.

Your total bankroll - whether you keep in on one poker site, on 10, all in Neteller, in the bank, etc - should be how you keep score.

To follow up on the above example, if I decide to go blow my $200k playing Pai Gow on Jetset, I think it would be absurd for me to claim to have lost only $500, since that's all I deposited. No..... I lost $200k. That was money that I owned. It doesn't matter where it came from or how I got it - it was mine to do with what I choose. I could have bought a house, but instead I blew it all playing Pai Gow, so I lost $200,000.... not $500.

People who insist they only lost $500 in that scenario are long term losers who need to justify their losses.

[Penguinfan]

I guess I have always thought of a winning player is someone who earns more money the more hours he plays. I cannot say that since it's just the occasional big score that keeps me in poker money.

[Talking Poker]

That's ok though... that's how poker goes - there is a lot of short term variance. But, take the total amount you are up and divide by the total number of hours you have played, and that's your overall hourly rate. You can't expect to earn that much money every hour, of course, but that's how much you've earned in the long run. Given that, yeah, the more hours you play, the more money you will earn.

[2Tone]

Accepting the concept that poker is one never-ending game that you drop in and out of at will throughout your poker playing career, I keep ‘score’ based on how much I am up or down – lifetime – at end of my latest session. The number of winning or losing sessions doesn’t factor into this – just how much money I have made or lost in total.

Since that lifetime total is very much a macro view, I’ll also break that down into how I am doing year to date (or ‘month to date’, or even ‘Vegas trip to date’), as well as live vs. online, ring vs. tourney, etc.

TP’s example of the player who makes $200,500, then loses $200,000 back is interesting. Under my rules, his total score would still be +$500, though depending on how long he took to lose most of it back, the month to date total could reflect -$200k.

Meanwhile, bonuses, high hand jackpots, etc. all are added to the amount ‘won,’ just as if I had won them in a regular pot. But tips and ATM fees and any other directly related poker expenses (backing somebody) are all factored in as well, and count towards the minus column. This means if I am eventually fined $100k by Washington State for playing online, I’ll consider myself a losing player.

[MAYHEM45]

Cash games: BB/100 positive? Winner. Negative? Loser.

Tourneys: ROI positive? Winner. Negative? Loser.

That about sums it all up.

[melioris]

this is an interesting topic, good thread PF.

I understand what you are saying TP, but it doesn't hold for all players. For instance, I am a micro/low player. I pretty regularly cash out instead of moving in levels. For whatever reason, it messes with my head to have more than 2K as my roll online (my well documented troubles with the morality issues which leads to my Nixon-tilt ala"I am not a crook").

So I build it up, play for a while, and then pull some or most out and buy something extra, give to charity, whatever. The point is, when this all started I point in $50. I pulled the first $50 profit out, and swore to never make another deposit. I have moved sites and keep my bankroll all on one site (as it is so damn small), but money is only a one-way street online for me. At this point, my bankroll is a lot less than what I have pulled out, and if I go broke (lose my bankroll) I will be done, but I will still consider myself a successful poker player.

[Talking Poker]

Yes, that is correct. Because your true bankroll (as far as this thread is concerned) is the amount that you have won less the amount that you have lost. You may not be willing to play with your entire bankroll, which is perfectly reasonable (I'm the same way), but that's still money you've won. It still counts.

[Aequitas58]

You have a $200k bankroll?

[Talking Poker]

No.

That was an "example." "Examples" often aren't real.

[Tony Cheval]

I have definately cashed out more than I have deposited lifetime, but I don't think the numbers either way are large enough to be terribly relevant.

As for Penguinfan...I think you are a decent player who gets down on yourself too easily.

[Dodoubled]

Actually, in Lou's world, wouldn't that be "Exhibit A?"

[Aequitas58]

Example != Exhibit.

Enjoy,

[Zybomb]

IT really depends what you're asking.

Does winning more than you lost make you a good player? Not necessarily. IT does however make you a winning player

If I start out with $500, playing at the $1/$2 NL tables (way underbankrolled), get up to $2500 then move to the $2/$4 Tables (again underbankrolled) eventually move up to $10/$20 with a $200k bankroll (correctly bankrolled) then have a cold streak and blow $195k, I'm still up from poker and thus I am still a winning player.

Now I realize I lost 195,000 dollars (I realize some may not take it that way bc it was money they won not money they earned, so it feels less real, but regardless I did lose 195k), but I started with $500, and I now have $5000, thus I am up $4500 from poker and am a winning player. It would be absurd to say I am down almost 195k, because I lost that here, and I started with 500, if you count the losses you have to count the wins also obviously.... your net total is your poker success.

Like TP said, Gold won 12 Mill... does that make him the best player there is? No. Im sure he's a good one though, and it certaintly makes him a winning poker player.

If youre asking how good am I, it's decisions not results

If youre asking how successful am I, just look at the numbers... they dont lie.

[Talking Poker]

I agree with all of this, with the exception of the bolded part. I've earned every single dolloar I've won playing poker. Maybe that's the difference in how the people who think of it as house money look at it compared to how I look at it. They feel like they got lucky and won the lottery, where as I feel like I worked for and earned the money.

[Aequitas58]

I didn't know it was an example.

[Talking Poker]

Really? Aren't lawyers supposed to pay attention to detail?