morality question

[Talking Poker]

What a great thread. +Rep.

As I was reading the first post, all sorts of responses came to mind, but I must say, nearly all of them have been addressed by other people already. Great post, excellent replies!

I'm in pretty much the same boat as everyone else who has replied to this thread so far. But I'll take it one step farther...

Rather than giving up poker because you feel it may be immoral, why not donate a portion of your winnings to charity? You don't need to donate 100%, of course, but even if you did 10% or 20% of each of your cashouts (50% if you must), then your poker playing would be DIRECTLY be a positive thing. You'd be taking money from people who many or may not be able to afford to lose it (you have no way of knowing this), but you'd be giving (some of) it to people who DO need it. Pick your favorite charity or church or local homless shelter, whatever.

[melioris]

Ok, thanks for all the replies everyone. Kind of felt dorkish posting about these thoughts and I wasn’t sure how they would go over. I should have known that you all kick ass and would be cool… or we are all dorks. I prefer the former. And I hope that I didn’t come across as a condescending morally superior son-of-a-bitch. I hate assholes like that. At the end of the day, I figure that we are all trying to be the best person that each of us can be (whatever that means) and often for me that means thinking about if pursuing my poker interests in the best use of my time.

The sports analogy doesn’t work for many reasons. The two most obvious are that the athletes on the losing team still get paid and every sport (including boxing, ultimate fighting, etc) have built in rules to protect those that participate.

Maybe I shouldn’t have mentioned the whole capitalism bit. I brought it up in an attempt to head off a discussion that wasn’t germane to what I was trying to say. But I failed to make myself clear, sorry. What I really wanted to say was, yes, in many regards poker can be thought of an almost pure form of capitalism. But that isn’t an argument that concerns itself with whether it is morally correct.

The charity thing is a good idea, one that I already pursue. And I recommend others to as well. But it still doesn’t get to the issue. So far I can sum the arguments that poker is morally neutral as extensions of the concept of free will. I wonder if there is any other, possibly more nuanced, reason?

[ashmc2]

Morality is usually associated with some faith-based dilemma. You alway seem to be a sympathetic ear around here to most threads. You always bring in the responses aimed towards family wellness and gambling addiction causes and/or treatment. Your like Poker's PEDA or some shit. You make me want to hug a tree or more like needing to hug my kids every time I touch a deck of cards. There is nothing wrong with this, as I like having your Dr. Phil ass around Mel. So when I bring up a topic around here you can coax me into pulling some money from my bankroll and buying my wife something nice.

Poker isn't inherently good or evil. Poker is what you make of it. I make the decisions I feel are right in my life. You can't save the world, you can barely save yourself. I try to do what's right by my family, my friends, and myself and everything else falls into place. Does this mean that I take advantage of everyone I interact with. If you what to get all philosophical, then maybe yes is the answer. My dog loves me, wags his tail, fetches, ands is all around companionable. Does he do this because he actually loves me or some sick symbiotic need for me to nurture him and keep him alive. I would say love. You?

Your morality problem with poker doesn't seem to stem from the competitive nature of poker but more to do with you personally taking money from the people that rightly shouldn't be playing, due to not mentally or monetarily have the necessary requirements to play.

Remedies - get thicker skin and stop sympathizing with everyones plight, play online, and don't be fooled by appearances.

1 - Stop worrying about everyone else. Your there to either make money or have fun. Decide which and stop feeling bad about it. Your personally or morally doing nothing wrong. Your not cheating. They are taking the food from their own mouths. You are just playing your game. That's it Mel.

2 - Online you can't look at someone and empathize with them or their problems as easily. They are just a chip and a chair online. This is rather impersonal, and that is the way you appear to need it.

3 - Don't be so quick to believe what you see or hear at the casino. Poker is about disillusion. What you see is quite often the opposite of reality in poker. Just think tells - strong/weak - weak/strong. People tell you sob stories to get you off guard. People talk tough to intimidate you . You wouldn't believe the rounders that play for a living which show up looking like a fish or in poor clothing to throw you off. When I go to the casino you don't think I show up in poker regalia, (Poker Stars shirts and hats.) No I show up in my "White Men Can't Jump Gear," so they think who's this chump - probably just got done watching WSOP on ESPN and figured he'd bring me money. They're there for one reason and that's to take your money. It's a game - play it better than they do.

Like I said before, I like your posts and how you empathize with everyone, just don't try to make us feel bad about something we like to do.
All my money online is all earnings, having long ago taken my starter moneys off. I don't want to take money off and buy my wife flowers, that's what my paycheck is for. This is My pastime and I want to see just how far this bankroll can swell. And of course I have some illusions of grandeur, (rounding, WSOP, slapping Helmuth around and making him say Uncle.) Those are my pipe dreams, which I hold dear, so don't bring me down with questions of morality. 'Cause, If playin' poker's wrong - I don't want to be right.

[ashmc2]

What exactly are you trying to say about urban america?

Don't make me break out the "R" word.

[jillaj]

I am saying they don't have the income that one would normally have when spending a significant amount of money clothing or anything else that does not hold it's value.

You can break it out if you like.

[ashmc2]

I was just pointing out how it sounded. It could be construed as insensitive.
I could care less. Again just jokin'.

[jaeh00d]

that is a very very good idea. I really like that, and would look to do that somewhere in the future. I donate and write checks to the homeless voice all of the time. at times i have felt bad leaving the local casino with a few hundred dollars in those mini tourneys, with those people that you know dont gamble for fun you can tell they have a problem.

[CardSharp]

This is an interesting thread. Heres one-I once cheated a bunch of drug dealers out of $50 playing poker. Now keep in mind that i wouldn't normaly cheat, as there is much more satisfaction in wining honestly, but there was no way i was watching them walk out with the money. Was this imoral? Personaly I found nothing wrong with it because i know where they got the money, selling crack. Now if they made that money honestly I wouldn't eaven consider cheating.

[ashmc2]

It's the act not the means that makes it bad. Cheating drug dealer, what has the world come to. I shake my head in disgust. And what would have happened had you been caught. Would it then have been worth it, card.

[Talking Poker]

Also, where do you draw the line? What if they were strippers or Republicans or whatever other occupation you (or whoever) might not approve of.

You know what they say: Two wrongs don't make a right.

Of course, three lefts do.

[Aequitas58]

Raise hand if anyone else did three lefts in their head.

I hate you sometimes, TP!

[Talking Poker]

[GTDawg]

A Utilitarian would say that taking money out of the drug dealers hands is ultimately a better good for society. So, the ends would justify the means of cheating to take the money from them.

That being said, I doubt you took the money to a local children's charity and donated it all.

And Kant would say that you were a jerk and your view of immortality is skewed beyond reproach concerning what is right and wrong. The results do not validate the action.

*shrug*
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Definitely an interesting thread though.

[Talking Poker]

Freaking smart people. I tells ya!

(It's been way too long since I've been in school and actually used my brain)

Good post.

[GTDawg]

I had my second ethics test Thursday =)

[Akverno]

I have to write a paper at the moment comparing utilitarianism to kant's view's on ethics. What a small freakin world.