Moneymaker explains his play

Penguinfan · #1 05-09-05, 03:43 PM

Completely disagree. Raymer had outs when he went all in against Matusow who actually made a horrible call in that spot. Moneymaker was the one calling all-in bets with inferior hands and catching up. Calling against Brenes's AA with 88 and 2 over cards on the board was just inexcusable, he had to be pretty sure he had 2 outs at best. If you cite Raymers play against Matusow then you have to equally hate Moneymakers play that knocked Chan out of the tournament, Chris CALLED an all in with nothing but a draw. I totally agree you have to get lucky to win a tournament these days, but Chris played FAR worse and got FAR luckier than Raymer did. Raymers good cards held up in coin flip situations, Moneymaker was content to call on the short end of things and catch.

Talking Poker · #2 05-09-05, 04:03 PM

There will never, ever, be another WSOP Main Event Champion who people won't criticize for getting lucky. You HAVE to get lucky to win. It's simply not possible to not win without getting lucky. Playing solid poker day in and day out for that long, getting lucky along the way or not, these guys have my respect.

I'm not saying you guys are saying they don't deserve it or anything... I just think it's weird when people point out that the winner won a lot of coinflips and even some hands when they were behind. To me, that's so obvious. Of course that is going to happen. It has to.

Penguinfan · #3 05-09-05, 04:26 PM

Agree completly TP, I'm just saying that Raymer was the agressor in most coin flips and yes he got/stayed lucky to win them. Moneymaker CALLED from behind and caught up, big difference in my opinion. That hand against Brenes just sticks out in my mind, I would love to hear Chris explain that one, especially after he commented about knowing he was in big trouble during the actual play of the hand. If he knew he was in big trouble then that had to mean he had 2 outs at best and put the majority of his stack at risk knowing this, horrible play and caught a 2-outer, hard to defend. Being the agressor with the cards Raymer did is much different than calling with the cards Moneymaker did.

omahilo · #4 05-09-05, 05:14 PM

Also Raymer had about 15 million in chips so he could do pretty much anything he wanted to do.

The most Moneymaker or Farha had at 1 time was 4 mill and change.

Tony Cheval · #5 05-09-05, 06:45 PM

Exactly, Raymer did what he was supposed to do with his big stack. They also had him do this 'running commentary' thing on his win like a couple months ago.

Eman885 · #6 07-09-05, 12:05 AM

He actually talks about this hand in his book. I will post it later.

Kurn · #7 05-10-05, 10:07 AM

I agree 100%. People have made judgments on the quality of play of these guys after watching about 2% of the hands they played. Yeah, Moneymaker got luck against Brenes, but he had a bigger stack. Did it ever occur that he must have played reasonably competent prior to that point to even have that big a stack?

Last year there was a huge debate on 2+2 about Moneymaker calling Ivey's all-in with 10 left, with a bunch of know-it-alls saying it was a stupid call. The problem was, it wasn't a stupid call, it was a good call. Anybody who says they'd lay down top trips/top kicker to a player as aggressive as Ivey doesn't deserve to even make the comment. Even if you compltely discount Ivey making that play with JJ or TT, the range of hands is 99 (3), 66(3), KQ(4), AQ(3), QJ(4) and QTs (1). Add in pure bluff (10%), and even assuming that Ivey is twice as likely to make the move while ahead, Moneymaker is ahead better than half the time *and* has 7 outs when he's behind. Now consider that a) he's still alive if he loses and b) he already stands to make more than 200% his annual salary if he busts out 10th.

Ridiculously easy call.

To win a 800+ player tournament you have to both play well and get lucky. One of the two won't cut it (which is why with these size fields, Hellmuth is a huge dog to ever win again).

Aequitas58 · #8 05-10-05, 04:05 PM

I completely forget this hand... can you possibly give details? Chip stacks, cards, suits, who made what move, etc etc?

Zybomb · #9 05-10-05, 05:17 PM

10 players left, one more elimination until the final table....Moneymaker was the chip leader at this point, I dont recall Iveys chip position but it wasnt in the top 3. Ivey had pocket 9s, Moneymaker had AQ. Another player had 10,10. Moneymaker opened the pot preflop and the two players called. The flop landed QQx. Moneymaker bet 70,000, Phil Ivey called with 9s, and the player with 10s folded. The turn came a 9, giving Ivey a full house. Moneymaker lead out and bet again, Ivey pushed in, Moneymaker instantly called. He became disgusted once Ivey showed his hand, and then on the river an Ace came giving Moneymaker the bigger fullhouse

Aequitas58 · #10 05-10-05, 05:21 PM

That's it.

Thanks for the refresher.

Kurn · #11 05-10-05, 05:23 PM

To fill in the blanks, Jason Lester was the player with TT, I believe, and the flop was Q-Q-6, and on the turn, Chris again bet $70,000.

Talking Poker · #12 05-10-05, 06:18 PM

I remember seeing this hand. I don't remember what Ivey's stack size was compared to Chris', but the call sounds perfectly reasonable to me. You have to think Ivey could make they play with a lot of hands worse than Chris'. Realistically, only 99, 66, anf Q9 beat him. He's ahead of everything else.

Eman885 · #13 07-09-05, 12:03 AM

wow, your wrong again here. Moneymaker had a pair of aces and the flush draw w/ two cards to come. Also Moneymaker is better than you will ever be.