Playing Draws Optimally Multiway

[Reel Deal]

I think this also depends on how deep you are... in the example Z gives they're pretty deep. If you're playing at 100bbs (or the gay 50bb you find at some B&Ms) then a raise might get you to the point where you're committed and is that optimal?

[melioris]

Wow, this is a great thread Zy. + Rep for sure. And it comes for me at a time when I am really working on my postflop play, so I appreciate it even more. My caveats are that I don't play live or full ring. But similar situations are found online and in 6-max games, whether it be a donk bet and a caller or a CB and a caller and you are holding a good, but not great, draw. I am of two minds here.

First is that you are just about getting the pot odds you need to call, even just to look at the turn. You have 9 clean outs and your A counts for maybe one out here, if only that an A falls on the turn you will probably be calling another bet to see the river. So calling seems like a good play, you are getting close to pot odds to chase your draw and, due to two (or more) signs of strength in front of you, you realistically can expect one person to pay off at least one more bet if your draw hits. Also there is major strength shown in front of you, so you have to expect that if you raise here you don't have a ton of FE. So calling seems good.

Raising also seems like a solid play here. I am calling it 10 outs here, counting your A for one out, so although we have discounted our FE, we still probably have some. And if you held a set here you would raise this 100%, right? So I think it is good to raise here at least some of the time, both to take it down and for meta-game (I hate that word but I am cooking dinner and the kids are going fucking apeshit right now so I can't 'plain what I really mean and meta-game comes close).

In my own game I am slowly coming to the realization that mixing it is probably the best thing to do, but with made hands (like a set) and draws like this one. My problem is that it is easy as shit to type those words but hard to do and incorporate into my game. Calling with a set here just seems dirty, and raising and getting allin here seems a little crazy to me. But I think the key is to do both some of the time. I will think about it over my thai golden tofu and get back to you later.

edit to add-this is assuming that opponents are decent

[Zybomb]

Bump -- any other thoughts, particularly from some of the higher limit players?

[JDMcNugent7]

I'd mix it up but I don't really want to get it all in here so I'd raise more when I think they might both fold or just call. I'd rather just call here and try to stack a lower flush and get out cheap if u miss.

[Talking Poker]

I missed this thread when I was out of town - great stuff.

First, to address the question about what to do with multiple opponents left to act behind you - the more people behind me, the more likely I am to just call. We want them in the pot when we are drawing. It builds a bigger pot for us when we hit, and of course it makes it much more likely someone will pay us off. If one of them raises, so be it, we can figure out how to react depending on the action following them before it gets back to us.

Quick and dirty: With a nut draw, multiple opponents is a good thing.

As for what to do in the situation described (with only 1 player left behind us), I think you MUST raise AND must just call in this spot. I think if you always call with a draw here and always raise with a set, that's bad. I know it feels dirty smooth calling here with a flopped set, but we MUST do this at least some of the time - even if it's only like 10 or 20%. Sure, it sucks when we have a set and a draw completed on the turn, but it's a GREAT feeling when the draw doesn't get there, there is action in front of us, our hand is somewhat disguised (because good players raise on scary flops with big hands, right?) AND the chances of our opponents making their draws are much lower now than when there were two cards left to come.

The percents you use are up to you, of course, but all I'm saying is you can't play like this:

Draw - Call 100%, Raise 0%
Set - Call 0%, Raise 100%

I think something like this will be MUCH better for your game:

Draw - Call 70%, Raise 30%
Set - Call 20%, Raise 80%