Poker is sex

Reel Deal · #1 01-25-07, 01:06 PM

bdawg... the mistake that was pointed out was his preflop re-raise, not his post flop play which was fine.

Also, we're seeing a pattern here where he seems to want to draw in someone and does so with a min-raise and then he's stunned with disbelieve each time the guy he wanted to bring along (who was correct to come along b/c the min-raise gave him the right odds to do so) draws out on him. The other pattern we're seeing is he doesn't seem to like, appreciate or take in the advice being given on this subject w/o getting overly sensitive and offended because, apparently, we just don't understand how good he actually is.

Talking Poker · #2 01-25-07, 02:24 PM

This hits it on the head. I won't restate the advice already given in this thread (all good), but I will add that folding bottom set may not have been quite as good a laydown as you think it was. It's impossible to say without more info (was the board KhQhJhTx8x and you had 88?), but more often than not, folding a set isn't a "great play."

X-Longshot-X · #3 01-25-07, 03:23 PM

The thing i dont understand. I got him to make a mistake twice right? He called with the worst hand preflop....that doesnt bother me, my opponents can call all day with KJ when i have QQ....why should i mind? Not only did i get him to make this "mistake" but i got him to commit his last chips with K high. I just dont see why you wouldnt want your opponent to call with KJ preflop when you have QQ....are you really scared you are going to be outflopped that often?

Reel Deal · #4 01-25-07, 03:39 PM

No, his first call of your RR wasn't a mistake.

No, but it sure seems to be bothering you, otherwise why post this? In all honesty, this beat is very standard.

X-Longshot-X · #5 01-25-07, 03:46 PM

3 outers are standard? mmk

Reel Deal · #6 01-25-07, 03:49 PM

I give up.

Talking Poker · #7 01-25-07, 03:58 PM

He doesn't get it. In my experience, a lot of new poker players think that the best hand is supposed to win 100% of the time, even thought it's very rarely a 100% favorite. Like, when they get all in preflop with AA vs xx, they think they are supposed to win 100% of the time, and when they lose once in a while, they forget about ll the times they won in that spot and start babbling about poker being rigged.

This is why Penguinfan left us, because he couldn't get this through his head and refused to try to learn. (starting at Post #6), which gives a great example of what we are talking about here.

I guess I have trouble understanding how people don't understand math. The best hand isn't always supposed to win!!!

Talking Poker · #8 01-25-07, 03:52 PM

I don't know what mmk means, but yes, 3 outers are standard. From the flop, he's got about a 12% chance to win, and he's way less of a dog preflop (I know you still would havecalled it a 3 outer if the money went in there). Get in this situation 100 times and you're going to lose about 12 of them. You're supposed to.

And like I said, if he had turned over A2 here (or A9 which has you drawing to running queens), I wonder what your take on the hand would be then.

Talking Poker · #9 01-25-07, 03:48 PM

You're missing the math. Let's look at a simple example, and see if it helps:

Blinds are 10/20. You each have 1000 stacks. You have AA, which we all agree is the best hand.

Opponent min raises to 40. You min reraise to 60. Opponent calls.

Now stop. You just got him to put in an extra 20 chips with a hand worse than yours. So by your logic, he made a mistake, right? Wrong! YOU just made the mistake. And here's why:

Before you reraised, there was already 60 in the pot. Your raise made it 100 and you were asking opponent to call only 20 more chips. you were giving him 5:1 odds! Opponent is correct to call for this price with any two cards (and with most hands, even if he knew you had AA!), and that's not even factoring in the implied odds of when he flops a set on you and you give him the rest of your chips with your overpair, etc. Get it?

In your example, yeah, he got really lucky when he put all his chips in with QQ, but on't say you played it beautifully, because you didn't. You made a mistake preflop. You gave him a nice price to see a flop with KJ. With the range of hands he should have put you on, he's correct to call there, even though he ended up only having one overcard.

Also, and this is something that no one has mentioned yet.... Let's say opponent turned over A2 (and he certainly could have had an Ace). Would you still think that you played it correctly? Would you have posted this hand and would you still like your flop play? Somehow, I doubt it.

Kurn · #10 01-25-07, 05:34 PM

he did not make a mistake preflop. HU and the pot is offering him 2.33:1 he is easily a money favorite vs your range.

Its even borderline to say he made a FTOP error preflop. He was a 2.44:1 dog vs the precise hand you held. There is way more than an additional 4.6% equity in implied odds there.

Reel Deal · #11 01-25-07, 08:03 PM

Don't bother Kurn.

Talking Poker · #12 01-26-07, 01:24 AM

Seriously... you might as well be writing in Latin. He doesn't get the most basic of principles, so no way is he going to get the numbers or understand "ranges" and "implied odds" and such. Let it go.

He's not the best, mind you, but he's really good. Very little room for improvement there...

X-Longshot-X · #13 01-26-07, 01:26 AM

Wow, you guys really dont want to let anything go. I understand a lot more about the game of poker than people give me credit for. But ive said that and it doesnt matter....im obviously going to have to play 2/4 before i can even have a shot at being considered good

bdawg31 · #14 01-25-07, 03:20 PM

Okay, i get what you are saying now. I guess its a case of 'be careful of what you wish for' when you lure/price someone in with that kind of raise prelfop.

Talking Poker · #15 01-25-07, 03:34 PM

This is similar to how you used to (I hope you don't do it any more) always min reraise with AA preflop. You'd price your opponent in to call and think that you were correct because you were getting THAT money in as a favorite - when really, you didn't make him make a mistake.... and then he'd suck out and you'd give him the rest of your chips (giving him loads of implied odds), etc. IMO, it was also obvious what you had (to someone paying attention), since you'd only make this weak 3 or 4 bet with AA and KK...

Make your opponent make mistakes.

bdawg31 · #16 01-25-07, 04:30 PM

Always is a bit of a strong word. I would do this sometimes. And I didnt just do it with AA. I have read in more than one source of professionals using min-raises in their tourney play. Gavin Smith and Lee Nelson (won the 2006 Aussie tourney) off the top of my head.

Talking Poker · #17 01-25-07, 04:38 PM

They may be a correct situation deep in a tourney with short stacks for min-REraising (are you sure that's what they are doing, and not just opening for a minimum raise?), but I am sure it's the exception and not the rule.

I wish you had posted this yesterday, I saw Gavin Smith at the Borgata last night and would have asked him about it.

bdawg31 · #18 01-25-07, 04:41 PM

I actually posted his article (gavin's) about it. They talk about opening with it. I could probably dig it out.

I think part of my problem experimenting with that is maybe i am not a good post-flop player. That plays into it too (being able to get off a hand - being able to buy the pot after the flop if you miss, etc).

Reel Deal · #19 01-25-07, 04:45 PM

Negreanu does this too, so you're talking about two of the best post-flop players on the planet. If you can play like they can post flop... min-raise till your fingers bleed.

bdawg31 · #20 01-25-07, 04:47 PM

here is the actual 'tip' from gavin smith at fulltilt archives:

here is the TP thread where i posted it for discussion:

LOL at the line you have about gavin passing out during that $30 SitNGo we played with him. Good times....good times....

Going from playing with Gavin Smith in the Bahamas to messing around with $25 PLO at UB. How times have changed.

Zybomb · #21 01-25-07, 09:15 PM

You were at the Borgota last night??

Talking Poker · #22 01-26-07, 01:28 AM

Yeah... not for poker though (but I definitely had the itch). My buddy is getting married on Saturday, so I flew up to PA and we went out for a bachelor night last night.... He doesn't play poker, but he likes to gamble, so we played about 10 hours worth of table games (Pai Gow, BJ, Let It Ride, the "Texas Hold Em" table game, roulette, slots, etc). Earned enough comp dollars for a few meals and won a little coin in the process too. It was a fun night. I love that casino too. Top notch.

If the wedding wasn't Saturday, I would have played in a satellite to the Winter Open for sure. I LOVE the tourney structure they have at the Borgata for the big events...