Step challenge at Party Poker

[Penguinfan]

Someone with better math sense than me should figure out if this is a good deal or not. If you don't know what it is you would be better off looking on thier lobby page and clicking the link in the upper right hand corner than having me explain it. The short of it is you buy-in for $12 to a 2-table SNG game and instead of cash you advance to the next step 2 you can advance to step 3, win cash, another step 2 entry or bust out. Step 3 you can advance, win cash, drop back to step 2, get another step 3 freeroll or bust out. Step 4 is advance to final step, drop back to step 2 or 3, another step 4 freeroll or bust out. Now in the final step you get $9000, $5000, $3600, $2400 or nothing at all the way I read it.

Sounds fun and I will probably give it a try, but how much value am I losing over just playing 10 or 20 dollar SNG's?

EDIT= here's the link

[Penguinfan]

Oh yea, and there has to be a profitable way that 3 or 4 of us could work together on this, not by cheating, but once we get to level 3 or 4 if we got together and all played the same table and worked out a nice split it might be worth a partnership, right? I don't think this qualifies a collusion, do you? I mean if we weren't sharing cards or anything but had 5 people in the final step 5 game and just afreed to split the money it could still be a nice payday for an initial investment of $12. If I am wrong plwase correct me.

[junYUN]

i don't think it's cheating, but you're also assuming that 5 people can get there at the same time. if you like that style of tournament though, you can see tons of hands, and potentially make a nice bit of cash.

[Talking Poker]

I haven't worked out the math, but I think it's cool. Of course, you could do this yourself by just taking the money you win at whatever SNG and then buy into a higher limit one...

It's a neat little promo though, and I'm sure Party will make tons of money off of it. Just like the Bad Beat Jackpot.

[Slayre]

Seems like a good value to me. seems like the higher in steps you go, the more chances you get 'to keep playing', ie. at step 3, you have 11 places where you will be able to continue to play, and at step 4 you have 14 places.

same thing for winning the freeroll.. 1 -4 at step 1&2, 1-6 at step 3, 1 - 8 at step 4.... the 4 places pay at step 5....

That's potentially alot of poker for 12 bucks... you could play forever.. heh..

I coulda used this last weekend, where I came in 4th in over half the SnG's I entered...

[jdiana86]

Looks cool, definetly where the money will be at.

[Penguinfan]

Thats what I thought at first, but later on you get all those spots to kep playing and thats an incentive right there. I don't know if this is a good idea or not, seems like the toughest part is the first step. Like sheep to the slaughter though, I 'll give it a try.

[Penguinfan]

Just finished my first effort and OF COURSE busted out 5th, took about 1hr 10mins. AK vs KK and no Ace to be found. ALOT of 4th and 5th place finishes for me recently, I mean ALOT. I don't know if this means I am getting better or worse.

[Penguinfan]

OK, here's where the brutality sets in, once you get past level 1 it would be pretty easy to play a solid tight SNG style of play and never get busted completely out, you may have to repeat a level or go back a level, but you should get PLENTY of play for your initial $12. The carnage is when you get to the top step, level 5, there are 4 very nice prizes in a 20 player game, but thats it, there are no replays for 5th, for 5th you get jack friggin squat. I am not sure I could take finishing 5th and getting nothing for all that effort when 4th is $2600, I mean for guys like me who play $10, $20 and the occasional $30 SNG this $1000 game is pretty big, so I am pretty sure after busting out 5th I would be on the railroad tracks down from my house.

Does Party let you sell seats like Stars does? Can you chop at the final table? I mean there is 20 grand in the prize fund at the level 5 game and I will be honest, after making it through 4 levels I would be more than happy to chop it 20 ways if I had to and walk away with 2 grand for the effort.

Edit= that would be 1 grand if chopped 20 ways, but I'd still take it.

Anyone know Party's policy on sell or chopping?

[Penguinfan]

Got 6th in my second attempt, gee I wonder where they keep finding the suckers to fund these big prizes?

[omahilo]

lmao! dont be so hard on yourself... let us know when you succeed to the next step... I want to see how this ends up.

[Defendant]

Ok as for the math, here goes:

STEP 1: 11+1

places 1-4: get step 2 = 55$. So top 20% get 220$ evenly distributed
Compare to 10+1 2 table SnG: top 4 spots get 200$, divided between 1, 2, 3, 4 at different rates.

Discrepancy Step vs Cash: 1st: 55$ vs 80$
2nd: 55$ vs 60$
3rd: 55$ vs 40$
4th: 55$ vs 20$

========> Since for finishing 3rd and 4th you get a good bit extra money vs the cash SnG, its a good deal for most "consistent" performers, as getting into the money is a reasonable proposition, winning at that point is a crapshoot a lot of times.

STEP 2:
Now heres where it gets interesting:

1-4: 215$
5-6: 55$
7: 30$

Compare to 50+5 cash SnG:

1st: 215$ vs 500$ (ouch)
2nd: 215$ vs 300$
3rd: 215$ vs 200$ (ah here we go)
4th: 215$ vs 100$
5th: 55$ vs nothing
6th: 55$ vs nothing
7th: 30$ vs nothing

Again, unless you plan on coughing up 55$ for a cash SNG and plan on finishing first or second, this provides a lot better deal. The problem, however, is a nasty 285$ cut from first (youch).

Etc for the next few steps, except you have to suck out REAL early not to get anything beyond step 2.

Pretty much the same math applies across the board here: A consistent player wont necessarily win every SnG he enters, but more often than not will finish in the top half of the field. As such, these tournaments provide a great opportunity as they dont differentiate too much between the exact places, whereas SnGs, you take a 20% payout difference just between first and second (which at the normal blind structures, is quite the nasty crapshoot a lot of times).

It does seem like buying into step 2 is a very acceptable proposition here though.

Defendant

[Talking Poker]

I like your breakdown, but you didn't follo wit all the way through, and you are forgetting (failing to mention) one very significant factor:

You aren't allowed to "cash out" when you win. You have to keep on playing. Sure, a decent player will get to play for a while, and may move quit far up the ladder, but only 4 players are actually able to cash out. Yes, they get to cash out quite a bit of money, but everyone else goes home with nothing (Exception: the three people earlier on the chart who won $30 and $35).

So, let's look at the loser side of this, just for kicks... and we'll assume everyone starts at the $11 level (they won't, but we'll just talk in terms of an $11 entry fee)...

Ok, I started typing this all up, but it's freaking complicated With the players looping back to various steps, it's really hard to figure out how many people need to lose before starting a final table.

I guess the easiest way to think about it (although not exact) is that there is $20,000 in the prize pool. With a $10 entry fee to get things started, it's going to take 2000 players to fund that final table (this is not counting Party's cut along the way). And only 4 players win.

[eddo31]

i believe that this is basically the same structure that foxwoods used for their ACT I, II and III satellites for the WPT event there. it seems to give a lot of play, especially because you get to repeat levels if you do well enough.

i havent done the math behind it, but i would assume that party makes out like bandits in this situation. is there really any motivation for them to add this unless they can make a significant profit margin from it?

[Defendant]

Big time, eddo. Online poker is HIGHLY competitive, and anything to make your site stand out above the rest is a good thing, even if you only make marginal profit off of it. Something like this is more a customer draw thing than a cashcow IMO.

Defendant

[eddo31]

i just am not sure that party needs to try and out-promote the other players in online poker. they are the microsoft here, and they only need to change when enough people really get pissed about their policies and fees. yes, there is other competition for the online poker players to go to, but no one else is really even close to party for game selection, number of players, etc. stars may have the better tourneys, but as a whole party just blows everyone else away.

i am sure that they dont really approach their business this way, as it is usually good to grow your customer base, but i dont think their motives necessarily have to be geared towards giving the customers a better deal. if they wanted to do that, the only way for most online players to even notice the difference would be to offer a huge deposit bonus. i dont think that most casual players are using pokertracker to calculate their rake, and that is what this type of tourney would affect. people will be intrigued with the idea of winning 9k off of a $12 buyin, and that is enough incentive for most players without there being a reduction in effective rake.

[Talking Poker]

It's all about the money. Party still doesn't even have decent (or even accurate!) stats. It drives me crazy.

Just look at all the numbers on the ladder after the "+" - Yeah, I think they are going to do just fine with this...

[Penguinfan]

Marketing genius's they are, no doubt about that. Sure they are taking more than the standard rake here, but nobody notices, or nobody cares.


TP, it's $11+1 so 1819 start any given set of steps and 4 people actually cash out, when you look at it like that it seems horrible, huh?
But I can't help myself.

[PShabi]

Gonna have to give this a try tonight. Should be fun. I'll let you know how I made out?

Penguin,

Are the players playing differently in these types of tourneys?

Oh, and by the way. Yeah, it would suck to finish fifth in the final step but how can you complain at a chance to win that much money with a $12 buyin and only 20 people to beat?

When I make it to Step 5, I'll probably have some mad butterflies! Can't wait.

[Penguinfan]

No, the play of the game seems the same, though you have to adjust for the extra players and the fact that you will be playing 5 or 6 handed for a while, something that I find a bit tougher, especially since you go from 5 handed back to 10 handed when the tables combine. Also when you get to the final table (so to speak) you will be playing a regular 10 player SNG but with blinds at the level they have increased to and varying amount of chips, seems you better have at least doubled up at your first table to really have any use of decent strategy. You don't want to be in a situation where you have to double up and still have 8 opponents. If your a good SNG player and can adjust to these minor/major changes you may hit the jackpot.

I was a bit upset with myself in the second game I played yesterday because I was the chip leader with 6 players left and busted out 6th. Kept getting the short stacks pushing in when I was in the blind and it didn't cost me that much to call and I always had decent hand AQs, JJ, AKo, etc... and they kept catching with A/rag. In a game like this when there is only 20K in chips total it hurts to lose 700 or 800 even if your the leader and thats just what happened to me. If I would have won one of those hands where I was a racing favorite I think I would have been OK, but as it is I will be at level 1 in a few minutes.

[PShabi]

Shouldn't have any problem with the shorthanded to tenhanded aspect because I usually play 20 man SNGs so I'm used to it.

two more questions (don't bitch, Tp's paying you ):

If I'm down to three men, there's really no reason to win at one of the lower stages. I could just lose and still advance right? Seems like it.

Also, let's say I play and win up through STep 3. Am I required to play step 4 right then or is there another step 4 that I can enter later, or maybe the next day?

Can't necessarily devote that much time at once to poker. Baby might take a shit or something.

[Penguinfan]

Top 4 advance reguardless of finishing position.

You can play the following steps anytime you like. They just put a voucher in your account for the next game and when you open a step 2 table you have the option to use the voucher or buy-in with cash.

[Penguinfan]

Two more tries today, all-in with the best of it, out with the worst of it. And when I say the best of it I don't mean A-T against K-Q, I mean AK against A9 and AQs against Q-4o. This is really frustrating. How many times can you go in with the best of it and get run down in one day? As far as these step games go I have lost 4 now and 3 time I had far the better hand and got outdrawn.

[omahilo]

well good luck and keep trying... once u get to step 2 you should be able to do well and get alot of bang for your buck.

[PShabi]

Let's not shed a tear for Party on this one fellas. 20 step 1 tourneys going on as we speak.

My new concern is that when I advance to say step 4 or 5, it may be hard for me to find a game.

What I mean is, how often can I expect these to be going off? Will I be waiting for the step 4 or 5 tourneys for ever. I already have to wait 2 hours for a $20 limit hold em SNG on Friday nights!!!!!