Playing Draws Optimally Multiway

[Zybomb]

After last nights session, a hand occurred in which similar situations (with mixed results) have occurred multiple times before. I thought about it and realized it's a topic worthy of discussion here

No this isn't a "Zybomb Random Strategy Article" (although I'll offer a little insight), this is more of a question to others in how to deal with this situation.

I've noticed that I have a bit of a dilemma in multiway pots when I flop a draw in LP.

I'll give the specific scenario from last night, and then discuss my dilemma. 5/5 NL, Stacks $1k+. 2 limpers and a PFR of $40 from MP. I call from the CO with A4and both limpers call. The pot now has $170

The flop comes T75 flopping me the nut flush draw, a backdoor wheel draw and an overcard. The first limper checks, but the second limper leads out $90. The PFR calls and the action is to me.

Calling: It seems like an easy call here, getting almost 4:1, but my problem is that if I just call I basically turn my hand over and say I HAVE A DRAW, since almost all made hands I'd likely raise to isolate/protect against the multiway action with this drawy board, or fold... basically my range of calling hands that aren't draws really isn't too large.

Ways to correct this: I suppose I could expand my calling range to include some made hands as well in order to disguise my draws but I'd have to figure this wouldn't be the optimal way to play these hands.

So Im still left with the problem that if I call and the last limper folds and the turn comes X, they are likely gunna check to me.... I could check behind to try and induce river action and disguise my hand (maybe the prefered play here I dunno) or otherwise if I do bet (Im OTB and you checked to me I HAVE to be stealing dont I???) Im likely just going to take it down right there, thus my implied odds for the hand are crushed and Im calling the flop solely on (roughly) breakeven pot odds. Furthermore if the turn blanks and the Original bettor checks, the PFR is gunna fire a huge shell with any two (knowing Im on a draw and assuming the limper isnt that strong) and I'll have to fold.

Raising: It's a solid play here, it disguises my hand and it's certainly how I'd play my made hands as well so it seems good. Of course there's the problem that Im raising a donk bet (from a player who isn't a moron) and a cold call from a PFR (probably not as strong as it may appear given the board and 4 way action but...), Im reopening the betting and there still is the original limper behind me who has yet to act (he'd check most hands here imo). Worse case is Im called and I check behind the turn if I miss for a free card I guess (kind of turning my hand over also but...)

So I guess I kind of solved my own problem here, and it makes raising the right play (although risky) in this spot -- but Im wondering if thats really how to play it a large % of the time...

What if the situation is a little different as in It's been bet and called but there are 3 opponents still to act behind me instead of 1.... now what (makes a raise much riskier)

How the actual hand (this time) played out was I just called, the turn came 8 it checked to me, I bet $175, limper folded and PFR contemplated a minute and eventually folded as well

To recap the situation is that:

- It is multiway action (4+ players)

- We have flopped a drawing hand (straight or flush)

- It has been bet and then called in front of us

- There is at least 1 more opponent left to act

Note that although in this case it was a donk bet followed by a PFR call, a similiar situation would be a PFR bet and then a smooth call in front of you (probably makes raising a riskier play since the PFR could have a strong hand in this instance that in the original instance where he just called the donk bet)... would this affect/change your decision making in a spot like this??

Any and all comments or discussion dealing with this situation or those similar to it is appreciated. Note this isn't a HSIHPT for the specific HH above ... that is simply an example to illustrate the type of situation I am talking about

[Invigilator]

I favour the raising, but my major factor in multiway draws is where the other players are.

I am more likely to raise if there has been a check or 2 and then a bet and I am last to act. Technically I am no longer LAST to act but I did start the betting round in position. I am not too worried about a c/r from the first 2 players because of the innate danger of this tactic in a multiway pot.

If I have to act before 2 players have had to do anything, I am less likely to raise. I might be defining my draw, but with the additional risks of multiway pots I am thinking this might be better than the getting caught in the squeeze.

As I am typing this, it is making me think about the concept of absolute position (players between me and button) and relative position (players OOP who get to act after you in abetting round because of a check or a raise).

[thrash1294]

I like he raise move but for me it would come blank blank

But GREAT POST

[Reel Deal]

I think this also depends on how deep you are... in the example Z gives they're pretty deep. If you're playing at 100bbs (or the gay 50bb you find at some B&Ms) then a raise might get you to the point where you're committed and is that optimal?

[melioris]

Wow, this is a great thread Zy. + Rep for sure. And it comes for me at a time when I am really working on my postflop play, so I appreciate it even more. My caveats are that I don't play live or full ring. But similar situations are found online and in 6-max games, whether it be a donk bet and a caller or a CB and a caller and you are holding a good, but not great, draw. I am of two minds here.

First is that you are just about getting the pot odds you need to call, even just to look at the turn. You have 9 clean outs and your A counts for maybe one out here, if only that an A falls on the turn you will probably be calling another bet to see the river. So calling seems like a good play, you are getting close to pot odds to chase your draw and, due to two (or more) signs of strength in front of you, you realistically can expect one person to pay off at least one more bet if your draw hits. Also there is major strength shown in front of you, so you have to expect that if you raise here you don't have a ton of FE. So calling seems good.

Raising also seems like a solid play here. I am calling it 10 outs here, counting your A for one out, so although we have discounted our FE, we still probably have some. And if you held a set here you would raise this 100%, right? So I think it is good to raise here at least some of the time, both to take it down and for meta-game (I hate that word but I am cooking dinner and the kids are going fucking apeshit right now so I can't 'plain what I really mean and meta-game comes close).

In my own game I am slowly coming to the realization that mixing it is probably the best thing to do, but with made hands (like a set) and draws like this one. My problem is that it is easy as shit to type those words but hard to do and incorporate into my game. Calling with a set here just seems dirty, and raising and getting allin here seems a little crazy to me. But I think the key is to do both some of the time. I will think about it over my thai golden tofu and get back to you later.

edit to add-this is assuming that opponents are decent

[Zybomb]

Bump -- any other thoughts, particularly from some of the higher limit players?

[JDMcNugent7]

I'd mix it up but I don't really want to get it all in here so I'd raise more when I think they might both fold or just call. I'd rather just call here and try to stack a lower flush and get out cheap if u miss.

[Talking Poker]

I missed this thread when I was out of town - great stuff.

First, to address the question about what to do with multiple opponents left to act behind you - the more people behind me, the more likely I am to just call. We want them in the pot when we are drawing. It builds a bigger pot for us when we hit, and of course it makes it much more likely someone will pay us off. If one of them raises, so be it, we can figure out how to react depending on the action following them before it gets back to us.

Quick and dirty: With a nut draw, multiple opponents is a good thing.

As for what to do in the situation described (with only 1 player left behind us), I think you MUST raise AND must just call in this spot. I think if you always call with a draw here and always raise with a set, that's bad. I know it feels dirty smooth calling here with a flopped set, but we MUST do this at least some of the time - even if it's only like 10 or 20%. Sure, it sucks when we have a set and a draw completed on the turn, but it's a GREAT feeling when the draw doesn't get there, there is action in front of us, our hand is somewhat disguised (because good players raise on scary flops with big hands, right?) AND the chances of our opponents making their draws are much lower now than when there were two cards left to come.

The percents you use are up to you, of course, but all I'm saying is you can't play like this:

Draw - Call 100%, Raise 0%
Set - Call 0%, Raise 100%

I think something like this will be MUCH better for your game:

Draw - Call 70%, Raise 30%
Set - Call 20%, Raise 80%