Continuous Shuffle - Online poker RNGs...

[Talking Poker]

I was wondering about Full Tilt's Random Number Generator (just out of curiosity), so I emailed them about it. The response I got pointed me , which confirms what I suspected.

In live play, the deck is shuffled and the order of all the cards is fixed throughout the hand (obviously). Cards are then dealt out as needed.

Online, it's more secure (and more efficient) to continuously shuffle the deck. No, it's not literally, actively shuffling, but the order of the deck is not preset. When cards are needed, then RNG selects random cards from what remains of the active deck and displays them, creating a "new" deck (less cards in it) for the next request.

What this means is there is no such thing as rabbit hunting online. In other words, if you fold 22 preflop, and the flop comes A22, no, you would NOT have flopped quads against the other guys Aces Full had you played your 22. Because by clicking "call" instead of clicking "fold," the timing of the hand would have been thrown off, even if only by a fraction of a second (let alone how that would change the timing of the action behind you).

In a way, I like this, because it means the cards are being dealt in a truly random fashion, which is how you should think about poker anyway. But quite honestly, I really don't like it. What I like the least is that when my opponent shoves in with a flush draw or a gutshot or an underpair to my overpair or whatever the case may be, the TIMING of me clicking call with literally affects if he will get there or not. It's like a slot machine. If I click call right NOW, he gets there. If I had waited one millisecond longer, he wouldn't have.

I know it shouldn't, but that really irks me. I don't want to have any control over what's coming.

[Zybomb]

I strongly dislike this as well. I dont have time to elaborate now -- but I think that is awful

[MAYHEM45]

lol.

Yeah, and if you had just stayed home instead of going to get milk at the store, you wouldnt have got in that car wreck.

[Talking Poker]

Elaborate when you have time.

FWIW, if I was running a poker site, I would do it this way. It's MUCH more secure to do it like this. If the deck is preset in advance, there is the possibility that someone could crack the algorithm and know what the other players hold and/or what is coming next. It's a very small possibility, but it is there. With the continuous shuffle, this is impossible.

But yeah, as a player, I don't like it.

[Talking Poker]

You say this as a joke, but you don't understand how my mind works. Ever see the movie "Sliding Doors?" In a nutshell, my brain WANTS to think like that - not always focusing on the negative, mind you. For about as long as I can remember (long before I even knew what it was), I've been aware of the , and I don't really like it. Maybe it's a little bit of OCD or something, but I seriously need to make myself not think about it, or I think I'd go crazy.

Meh.

[Robbr25]

Yes but if you randomly order the cards there is no algorithm,
you just have to worry about it getting hacked somehow, which is the biggest concern.
I think I would rather for security just have them do it randomly.

[Talking Poker]

You understand that it takes an algorithm to "randomly order the cards," right?

[drewjax]

I wish I hadnt read this.......My mind will be going crazy (er) with conspiracy theories even more now.

Damn you TP

sw

[GTDawg]

You think too much. I mean, it's probably as close to random as any computer can possibly get. So, what does it matter?

Of course, if you are actually autistic enough to time how long you take to call the shove and can find a good range (say 5-10 seconds), I'd be happy to take interest in your theories...purely for the scientific reasons of course.

[Boobie Lover]

Some of you people are dumb.

[Dodoubled]

I believe slot machines work the exact same way. In other words, if you're sitting next to some bum in a casino who hits a jackpot, there's no guarantee you would have hit the jackpot had you been sitting at that same machine. You would have had to have pulled the lever at the exact nanosecond he did in order for the random number generator to stop at the exact same point.

[Robbr25]

I was a math major, I know approximately how they go about doing it. (Edit - yeah, yeah, yeah)

[PShabi]

If I had to bet, I would've put money on English.

[de-coder]

with a minor in something that is also not english... (edit: damn pshabi...)

[Talking Poker]

Splain, please.

(As I assume you mean me, Zy, and drew)

And don't get me wrong, I understand that its completely fair. I just don't like it.

[Talking Poker]

Exactly. And that's why I said I now feel like I'm sitting at a slot machine when I'm pressing the Call button.

And I don't like slot machines.

[GTDawg]

Slot machines are designed to pay out a certain number of times over a set period of time. Correct?

I doubt the RNG is designed to hit a certain number of hands per hour.

[Boobie Lover]

The likelihood of each event is still the same. So, timing down and then calling will still have the same effect long term of the next card being an A as folding.

[Talking Poker]

Huh? No one was suggesting that the RNG cared about the board cards and people's hole cards. But yeah, it's supposed to deal a Jack x% of the time or a or whatever, and I'm sure it does exactly that over the long run.

All I am saying is that I don't like the fact that if I am trying to dodge on of the two remaining Jacks or a flush draw or whatever the case may be... I don't like that the TIMING of my action actually controls the end result of the hand. I realize it's just as random as a predetermined sequence in the deck and this is a stupid thing to not like, but as a player who doesn't consider himself particularly "lucky," I still don't like it.

As for the slot machines comparison: Yes, they are set to pay out a set percent of the money they take in over a set amount of time - again, in the long run. "99% payouts!!!" It's not like they pay out big every 42 minutes exactly though. They can pay three times in a row or not at all for hours. Their internal RNG (that's basically what it is) will still end up paying out exactly as much as it's supposed to in the long run.

[Talking Poker]

Correct. But you absolutely can NOT do what just about everyone does, which is rabbit hunt - had you timed down and called instead of folding, the next card WOULD be different (well, other than the rare times that the exact same card is selected by the RNG).

In the long run, yes, you will flop your set 12% of time time or whatever it is.... but looking at each individual opportunity, YOU actually control if you will flop it this time or not. Yuck.

Again, I understand exactly how this works and agree that it is the most fair/secure way to do it.

[de-coder]

There seems to be a general assumption that time has a profound effect on the result of the RNG. That assumes that the actual system clock is being used as a seed for the RNG, which doesn't have to be the case at all.

When the RNG is called and provides a result that result could easily be the same no matter when it's called. To explain better - if the RNG has provided 48 results so far then the next result would be #49. The value of #49 might have nothing to do with when the RNG is called to produce result #49 - it could be that #49 will contain the same value whether it's call now - or now - or --- now...

In that case, it makes no difference when you click the button - you have no control, or influence, over the outcome at all.

Now, it's likely that it uses a clock, I'm just saying it doesn't HAVE to use a clock. In any event it's unlikely they would ever reveal what they use for a RNG for security sake.

[Talking Poker]

It uses a clock.

The whole point is that that are continuously shuffling (effectively) the remaining cards in the deck.

[GTDawg]

I think you think to much.

[Talking Poker]

Please choose desired response:

1. Agreed.
2. Look who's talking.
3. Is there such a thing?

[GTDawg]

Too pls.

Cause I have a response for that one.