Plugging a hole in my game: Ax suited

Defendant · #1 12-01-04, 02:57 PM

So, for the longest time, I tried playing A3s, A4s etc if I can get a cheap flop, both in limit and in no-limit. Quite a few pros advise you to play them in late position with not much of a raise in front of you (Phil Helmuth for one). Then I realized: In most low to mid-limit games, this is a no-no. Before the flop, you have a 7% chance to hit your flush. 7% means shitty pot odds. So the reason you would want to play this hand is implied odds. Ok so lets say you get the ideal flop, you flop the nut flush. NOONE will pay you off enough to have so high implied odds to make up for the huge deficit you get before the flop. In limit, they might turn into calling stations and call you down, and in no-limit, you cant expect anyone to call a big bet. So lets go through this in a limit situation:

Lets say blinds are 2-4 (since this seems a common limit around here)

You, in the cutoff, Ah 2h.
UTG+2 limps with As 9c. Fold around to you, right now theres 5$ in the pot. Odds to hit the flush by the river are 7%. Your pot odds are 2-5, which is 40%...hi, not good. This means that your implied odds after hitting the flush would have to make up for that difference of 33%, i.e. the money he needs to push in after you hit has to be enough to give you a 7-100 return on your money...dont know about you but thats a LOT of bets to call into a 3-flush on the board.

Now, god forbit an ace hits! Now what do you do?

I honestly dont think A small suited is a profitable hand, because people are too weary of 3 to a flush on the board at low limits (because they get burned a lot by people limping on their Q6 suited CUZ ITS SUITED DURRRR).

This might be different at higher limits, but I still dont think anyone would pay you off enough if you hit.

Defendant

2Tone · #2 12-01-04, 03:01 PM

Check out XXXXXXXXXXXXX for my thread on this, and some good replies.

junYUN · #3 12-01-04, 03:02 PM

i really don't play AXs ever, unless it's AT or higher (unless i plan on bluffing at the pot). just a general rule of thumb for me because i don't want an ace to hit and be up against a bigger kicker, or the flop to be a ragged rainbow and get no piece of it.

Defendant · #4 12-01-04, 03:15 PM

Funny, 2Tone.

Forgot to add...you MIGHT get sufficient odds if its a multiway pot (5 hands to the flop): Pot (assuming unraised) at that point would be 2-10, or 20%. Your implied odds might be enough then, but its still speculative

Defendant

DaTruPoker · #5 12-01-04, 03:57 PM

It is a good hand to change up your play and put your opponents off guard when u do hit the flush or trips with your low card, or even two pair.

jdiana86 · #6 12-02-04, 06:05 PM

I love playing suited aces, especially in Omaha. But omaha and hold'em are chess and checkers. However, on Pokerroom.com their ev charts have almost all suited aces as positive in the long run, so I like to play them in any game. Does anyone study ev and know if suited aces are good cards to play.

brokeagain · #7 12-02-04, 07:20 PM

Ax suited is not a hole, you just need to know how to play it properly. PERIOD

Defendant · #8 12-02-04, 11:04 PM

Well then enlighten us?

Straight mathematically, playing for the flush is idiotic. And how to play if you hit your ace is a totally different story, but give us your input.

Btw this isnt only an amateur opinion, check with TJ Cloutier sometime what he thinks of playing Ax suited.

Defendant

Baseballa19 · #9 12-03-04, 09:21 AM

I stopped playing them altogether and my win rate went up because of it. Sure, you're going to catch a flush like 7% of the time (Brunson), but even when your Ace hits, you're in kicker trouble.

scurvydog · #10 12-03-04, 10:27 AM

I think you're mixing a couple of different situations in your original post in order to arrive at a predetermined conclusion (i.e. Ax suited sucks).

In typical low/mid limit games, playing Ax suited in late position, in an unraised pot, is a profitable hand. If the action is folded to you, it's a raising hand. If it's raised before you, fold.

The more passive the table, the earlier in position you can play Ax suited. If there's almost no raising pre-flop, you can play Ax suited UTG, if you're feeling frisky.

If it's a multiway pot at the flop (say, with 4 or more players), you need the flop to contain two of your suit to call a bet. If the flop has two of your suit and it's checked to you, bet out. If the flop has two of your suit and it's raised before you, only call if you're relatively sure that at least three of you will continue to the turn. You're only going to hit the flush 36% of the time by the river so you need it to be more than heads-up to profit when you do hit the flush.

Don't chase runner runner flushes, if the flop only has one of your suit. Just don't do it. This is where people lose money playing Ax suited.

If the flop misses your flush draw but puts out an A, fold to any bet in front of you. If it's checked to you, bet. If you bet and it's check-raised, fold. Continue to bet out on the turn and river. What you have to remember is that Ax suited has value in the A, too, especially if you're the first to shove chips into the pot. Your long-term profit will only be a profit if you take down hands being first to act. If you get raised/check-raised, fold. Don't be stubborn.

Proceed with caution if you you flop top or middle pair with the x. You don't necessarily want to fold it but you also need to have a good handle on the table to proceed. A good rule of thumb, though, is to just muck it and be safe.

You can get paid even when you flop the nut flush, especially if you're in late position. Calling stations will assume you're just trying to buy the pot and will often call. You'll also get paid off well by KQ suited, anyone with a smaller flush, two pair, etc.

Ax suited is a lot like playing overcards (AKo, AQo, etc). They're drawing hands that are profitable in the long run, but only if you're disciplined and get the hell out of the way when the flop doesn't behave and help you out.

SirFWALGMan · #11 12-03-04, 11:36 AM

The only thing I disagree here about is putting money into the pot if you make your ace. I have seen WAY too many time someone just merrily call me to the river with there A9, or AJ and even pop me when it gets to the river. If your not 4 to a flush, 4 to a straight, or 2 pair do not even bother chasing this. With A high put out a bet on the flop. If the table folds then you win. If someone calls you just check it around on the turn and river and fold to any bet. Your weak kicker will end up costing you more money in the long run.