Who let the Dawg out?

[ChipFish]

We have a new reigning champion.!

Congrats BDawg!

[junYUN]

he had the balls to step up the aggression when it got down to 5 handed and everyone was playing tighter than my asshole. there were a couple times he came over the top of me when i had decent hands that i probably should have called... (A7s in the BB when he pushed in about 1400 chips to an unraised pot comes to mind that made me think for a while).

gg though, just frustrated about busting out 4th :\

[nutbag]

54% to 46%
Good game bdawg.

[Talking Poker]

GG bdagw, aka PokerNovice, for anyone that didn't know.


Here was the final hand:

PokerStars Game #1279375998: Tournament #5166592, Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (300/600) - 2005/02/27 - 17:25:06 (ET)
Table '5166592 2' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 8: nutbagger (11450 in chips)
Seat 9: bdawg31 (12550 in chips)
nutbagger: posts the ante 50
bdawg31: posts the ante 50
bdawg31: posts small blind 300
nutbagger: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
bdawg31: calls 300
nutbagger: raises 10800 to 11400 and is all-in
bdawg31: calls 10800
*** FLOP *** [Kd 6h Qh]
*** TURN *** [Kd 6h Qh] [9d]
*** RIVER *** [Kd 6h Qh 9d] [2d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
nutbagger: shows [Ah 7s] (high card Ace)
bdawg31: shows [Kh Jh] (a pair of Kings)
bdawg31 collected 22900 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 22900 | Rake 0
Board [Kd 6h Qh 9d 2d]
Seat 8: nutbagger (big blind) showed [Ah 7s] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 9: bdawg31 (button) (small blind) showed [Kh Jh] and won (22900) with a pair of Kings


Pretty loose call, IMO (it's way too easy to be dominated with KJ), but then again, I finished 5th - so what do I know?

Yeah, I don't know..... at BEST, you have to think you're a coinflip here, but at worst, you are dead meat. after playing solid heads up poker for however long it was (I'm guessing a half an hour), is it really worth risking everything on KJ?

Either way... GG. Thanks to everyone who played.

[bdawg31]

Thanks everyone. That was a great tourney - lots of good play. I got the lucky break in the end - which i will gladly take against the likes of you all!!! Unlike Phil Hellmuth - i know i need some luck mixed in with my 'skill' to cash in these.

[bdawg31]

Well, it wasn't really a 'good' call since he had the best hand going in. But, like i said just before i saw this post - i dont mind getting a little lucky.

[Talking Poker]

Understood... it's just a call I couldn't make. I'd rather try to get lucky when I'm a lot more confident I have the best hand... especially considering you guys were basically even stacked and there was no money in the pot when you made the call.

BTW - my questioning the call is by no means meant as an insult... I don't think it's that bad... Just was wondering how other people owuld have played the hand.

[Talking Poker]

BTW... PokerNovice has graciously agree to continue ChipFish's tradition by putting a bounty on his head for the TPFI3.

Props for that.....

[Tony Cheval]

It was good playing with you guys, even though I got knocked out early.

[Brijac]

I will have to side with TalkingPoker on this... the call was not a call that I would have made. I can't imagine playing solid poker for the whole tournament to risk an all in bet with just KJ. At best, I would need to have an A (real good kicker) in my hand or a pocket pair.

I know that luck is always involved, but you can't rely on luck when you make your decisions. As a good friend tells me all the time, "Decisions, not Results."

Bdawg, I wonder if you have second thoughts about that decision, even though the results were good? Would you make the call again?
Can you describe your thought process to make the call?

[nutbag]

My thoughts on the hand (for whatever little value they have (now)):

First my thoughts on the call: Most previous all in's preflop, only a few that I remeber heads up, were not even considered by the other player except for one all in was Ax vs Ax(my initial i think). Not in a million years would I have considered calling that either, and from what I observed playing Bdawg, neither would he. Reraising or initially raising, he's very likely to get all in, which is very understandable, but not by calling. Was it the monotony of the game that caused that call or the fact that you had two face cards, or was I bluffing more than I thought I was? I'm also not insulting your play at all, really just wondering your thoughts on that hands, the whole rest of the tournament seemed very logically and skillfully played by you.

My raise reasoning: The game had been playing pretty tight, and not many preflop all in's were happening. A7 is a hand I never really want to play, so I figured i'd overbet it. I was almost sure he wouldn't play a pocket pair by calling the flop, so figured I'd either lose the tourney to a trap, which i thought unlikely, or get a fold.

Do you guys agree with the preflop all in by me?

[Brijac]

While I don't think that the raise was the best move, I don't think it was a bad move either. Seeing how conservative the play became, A7 would be a good hand to steal the blinds without worrying too much about a call. The only hands that I would see calling that would be Ax and any pocket pair (preferably not too low).

In this situation, I like your aggressive play and you did get all your money in the pot (and his) with the best hand.

[Talking Poker]

I wouldn't have even called with Ace little here. Again, you are probably dominated, and why risk it? There was no money in the pot (prior to the all in). Why not wait until you know you are a big favorite instead of hoping you arne't too much of a dog and relying on "luck?"

I guess it just REALLY surprised me to see those cards when they were turned over. After watching what looked like such a skillfull heads up battle for a half an hour or so, I didn't expect to see either of these players call all in as dog unless they got trapped or they both had really big hands. Yes, I realize 60/40 is not a huge dog, but still - the entire tourney was on the line, and it could have been a lot worse.

Regarding the all in bet, I think your logic was fine, nutbag. I probably would have just raised after he limped in though - Again, the blinds were quite small relative to your stacks. Then, if he came over the top of you (meaning he was indeed trapping you and you were in bad shape), you could fold and still be alive.

[bdawg31]

Hmmm - why did i make the call? Since we are amongst friends - i will tell you. I don't consider myself a very good heads-up player. I think i can hold my own in the other stages, though. I have quite a few 2nd place finishes in tourneys around this size (and not from making these types of big calls - from trying to 'outplay' heads-up). And there have been a few times i have had my money in with the best of it and lost - but there are more times i get too cute or over-think or whatever.

So, with the chip count even - i limped in wiht a hand i was almost for sure going to call an all-in bet. Why? I figure an all-in bet would mean he would NOT have AA, KK or probably not QQ. I was scared he might do it with an AK or JJ hand which would have been real bad news for me - but what can you do. So, when he goes all-in - i figure i am probably at worst around a 50/50 shot (give or take a few percentages) - at best i might catch him semi-bluffing with who knows what (as he pointed out - there had been a TON of quick folds preflop to big bets). So, i am probably around 50/50 to win that specific hand (and the tourney) - i figured at BEST i am 50/50 to win just playing it out (maybe worse - that is a nod to you nutbagger). I am probably not an even bet when we were even with chips.

I dont take questioning the call as insulting at all. Just looking at that specific hand history, i can see why people would question it. I would question it.

I am content with the way i played - ChipFish was at my table the whole time. I think he can verify that he didnt see me making any loosey-goosey calls along the way, showing junky hands or whatever. I didnt stumble my way to the final table - and i didnt stumble my way to the money or heads up. I did stumble my way a bit to the #1 spot, but i am cool with that. I got lucky on the bad side of a coin flip at the end - other than that i dont think i showed one suckout hand or bad hand that i played (note that i say 'showed' :-)

[Talking Poker]

I think you are underestimating yourself, Novice... I only played with you on the final table, and other than possibly risking your stack a little more than I would have (I didn't see your cards, because people were always folding to your big all in bets), I thought you played great poker. And when you guys got to heads up, he had a HUGE chip lead over you. You built it all the way up, and then this.......

I understand your logic, I guess, but if you were trying to avoid seeing flops and were willing to call all in with KJ, why not just push in using the same logic nutbag used? Then, one of two things happens:

1. He folds and you increase your chip lead (very likely).
2. He calls and you are in the exact same situation as above (less likely).

[bdawg31]

yes - i will take this all under consideration - thanks for the input. Of course, i am always tweaking and experimenting with my game - but way more so with my heads-up-at-final-table game.

[ChipFish]

I think Pokernovice has learned a concept that many here seemed to have missed for tourney poker.... (It is less effective headsup)
Less than 10 BBs = push or fold.
That is why he was pushing his stack in....
There is no fold equity if he merely calls or mini-raises.

[Talking Poker]

I don't think this applies to calling all in (especially heads up).

Also, where did you get the 10 BB number? That seems high to me.

[ChipFish]

I was speaking of his play prior to his heads-up play "call" there were 5-9 players left and he was relatively shortstacked....
You even called his frequent all-ins suspect.
So you are correct, it is for pushing all-in, on an unraised pot.

10 BB is the number... Learn it.
Got it from a pretty well known player...
In fact I am 100% certain you have watched him win a rather large entry event on television .

[Talking Poker]

Does he have a name??? Would he be upset with you for sharing his magical 10 BB (and I assume that stands for Big blind in this case) rule of thumb?

Come on, boy - out with it already!

[ChipFish]

Fossilman,
Among countless others.

Has alot to do with folding equity.

[Talking Poker]

Interesting.

I don't think I've ever read that number anywhere but I always thought it was significantly lower.... like 4.

[omahilo]

You see so many more hands online compared to live poker so the blinds get to you faster so thats why its prolly 10 IMO.

Also online you have 15 min blinds and live you have like 90 mins in the big buy in tourneys.

[Talking Poker]

I can't see what this could possible have to do with anything......... nope. Yes, the blinds get to you faster in real time, but in poker hands time, it's the exact same.

[Kurn]

With 10BB or less, if you make a normal 3x BB raise and get called, the pot size commits the rest of your chips postflop. Since there's no rationale with betting 30% of your stack with any intention of folding on the flop, you push all-in to increase your fold equity.