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#1
10-25-04, 07:45 PM
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Josh Arieh (WSOP04) - Conduct
I like many others enjoyed watching the WSOP on TV. I really enjoyed watching all my favourite players and how they handled the biggest event of the year.
There was a few (well alot) of things that really pissed me off this year though. The amount of players showing no class whatsoever when losing or winning hands. The most famous case being how Josh Arieh conducted himself over the event. Never have I seen someone tarnish the name of poker so much as him and his actions over the event. A few times he made gestures and curses about how people "dared" call him 'all in' with hands that were better than his! He mouths off how great he is yet 3-4 times he stayed alive with lucky come from behind beats on bad calls. The classic moment was when Harry Demetriou (A really quiet, unassuming pro) from England went all in with the best hand and Josh out flopped him in the hand and starting berating him and jumping about like he was the king. After you just took a million pot there are ways to do things, and rubbing someone's nose in it and saying they made a bad call when they didnt is lame. He later said sorry to Harry (in person at Aurau and on forums) but he apologises for doing it to him, not what he said. He showed a few other times how not do do things and make himself look a brat. The next hand be knocked out Harry with A7 vs AK did Harry whine? Mattias Andersson is another one, who to a lesser extent needs to grow up and learn not to run about screaming everytime he wins a hand. On the other hand GREG "FOSSILMAN" RAYMER took every bad beat well, but also took every victory with class, going up to the player shaking their hands and saying "well played" etc..Manners dont cost a penny people.. If your going to play mind games at least Marcel Luske does it with class! Anyone see him singing at the tables knows what I mean. He's a gentleman on and off the table and took his bad beats like a man. John Murphy shows you young players can show respect for the game and other players without having lots of experiance of live events. I know I might be biased mainly due to the fact in Europe your not allowed to talk during hands. It maintains the level of respect and cuts out the wise cracks. There is a place for chatting and having fun between hands. Do others believe Josh Arieh acted without class? or is it just me. |
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#2
10-25-04, 08:05 PM
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Remember that alot of these players are cocky for a reason....
To win, you have to believe you are the best. Some are brash and downright rude... Others act with class at all times.... Sometimes it's just an act, and other times they really are mannerless. If I know that belittling someone at the table will cause him or others to play a little off their game, I'll do just that... Not always, but sometimes.... Whatever works right? Sometimes there is alot of money at stake.... We also have to remember that ESPN only shows us what they want us to see also.... I am sure there were plenty of times he shook hands gratiously after knocking a player out that they chose to omit. |
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#3
10-25-04, 08:15 PM
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yeah both of you are right. Josh shouldnt have been such an asshole to Harry D, but ESPN does show a very biased view of all of the hands. One hand Josh was outplayed by a guy who had a set, josh went all in with an open ended straight draw, and when he hit it on the river he seemed ashamed that he won the hand... ESPN just shows us the most emotional and extreme hands that occur, because airing the less emotional hands would get them a lot less viewers.
-jB |
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#4
10-25-04, 08:21 PM
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I thought Arieh completely lost his mind under the pressure in that hand with Demitriou. Mattias Anderson was simply annoying as hell with his over the top reactions to knocking people out. Finally, I like watching Murphy play but how do you oversleep when you are the chip leader??
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#5
10-25-04, 09:52 PM
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i find this somewhat amusing. the idea that the image of poker could possibly be tarnished by any of these events anyways seems ludicrous.
i didnt realize that poker all of the sudden had a clean image because it was popular on espn and the travel channel. |
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#6
10-25-04, 09:58 PM
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Good post Taja. I agree with you...
Raymer is a GREAT example of a champion. He acted with class from beginning to end. A lot of people think he was underserving, and of course he got lucky throughout the tournament (you HAVE to to win that one!), but I thought he played very well and was a class act.... just like I'm gonna be when I'm world champion. |
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#7
10-25-04, 10:03 PM
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I've read some pro's saying he is a good guy away from the table, and that he just let his emotions get the best of him. If I was in his position at the final table I would have been pissed to at Raymer. Raymer won alot of big hands when he was the underdog and got lucky. I personally think Josh is a putz. But I constantly belittle other people at the table if there pissing me off. Besides ESPN could make anyone look like a ass with enough editing.
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#9
10-25-04, 10:16 PM
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hell, i think with the proper editing, espn could make it look like i won the tournament this year. and i didnt even come close to playing.
although i said earlier that i dont think that poker really has a clean image to uphold, i do think that raymer seemed like a class act. arieh did come off as a complete ass, but he did at least post an apology online when he saw how he came off on tv. |
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#10
10-25-04, 11:49 PM
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Of course things are eidted and there is a biased view, but what you saw actually happened and theres know denying that. Raymer came off as a man with class because he is, and well, the others that came off as "bad", they showed the unecessary and of course ESPN is going to cash off of that.
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#11
10-26-04, 12:12 AM
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Alot of people watched the WSOP on TV this year. They see people shouting, jumping up, being total pricks, showing no class, rubbing players faces in big loses and think wow cool I will do that.
WSOP 2005 - 1000 clones all acting like a brat, becasue they can and nothing was done about it. |
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#13
10-26-04, 12:32 PM
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and that makes it ok because contact sports conduct themselves in such a manner?
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#14
10-26-04, 12:34 PM
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My dad said Arieh was a d!ckhead.
I saw him when he said he was the best player at the table. I'm glad he thought he was, shows confidence. But he wasn't kidding anyone but himself. It's like someone saying they grow the best pot in the world, when everyone knows my avatar is the man  .
__________________
That's how I rolled. |
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#16
10-26-04, 01:03 PM
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Raymer showed class, but in my opinion, was kissing a little too much ass. It got sick after a while. Also, if you watched the tournament of champions, it proved to me that Raymer got very, very lucky in the WSOP main event. He played horribly at the TOC. How do you call an all in bet preflop with 89os and you're stack isn't that small?
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#17
10-26-04, 01:20 PM
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Nothing to talk about????
Sorry to say it guys but I got interested in poker because of all these guys. I loved Han Lee when he would say "I call you, I told you I call you". Poker is nice, but I don't think I could stand a tournament where everyone is quiet and has a poker face. I remember when I started liking Tennis; it was because of John Mcanroe. Most of the sports we enjoy because of how much they throw it in their face to the other team. I did feel that Josh overdid it, but Matias was just perfect. If anyone wants to critizise Josh, then critisize Phil because he still surpases Josh by a mile in how cocky he is. Ofcourse that does not diminish how great he is but were talking about attitude. To me, if the rules permits it, then is all good; Hope to see more Matias Andersons.
P.S. I think ESPN did a number on Josh just for the ratings. |
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#18
10-26-04, 02:02 PM
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i think that this is the problem here. a lot of people get sucked into the game because of the personalities, love em or hate em. but after you begin to get a better understanding of the game, or you become more serious about playing the game, the personalities can become a distraction. i think that espn very selectively edits their footage in order to make easily definable good guys and bad guys at the world series, but we also have to remember that Arieh, etc actually said the stuff we saw on tv. they didnt make that up. |
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#19
10-26-04, 07:34 PM
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If your looking at poker to entertain you, then Josh and the other idiots are fine. It does make good TV for sure and the rating's will increase.
But if your a serious player who plays live events you would think the same as me. I have seen a few mouthy brats get slapped for ALOT less in England and they aint been back. Ask the players what they prefer, what environment they would like to play high stakes poker in? All the best players are calm, take the beats, handle the pressure and show class. (There is only Helmouth who is an expection and hes a freak of nature). A prime example of this was when the WPT came to Paris this year, the American Pro's loved the atmosphere, the respect showed to each other. When Tony G (A famous Aussie poker player with an ego and mouth the size of sydney) starting talking the talk, everyone got pissed and teamed him. I have never seen the Proffessor so mad! Yes it was funny to watch on TV, but really did nothing for the game, the event or the atmosphere in general. |
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#20
10-26-04, 11:29 PM
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I think these Pesky Poker players are a small price to pay for being in the WSOP. If these players affect your play, then maybe poker is not for you. The most these poker players have is a loaded mouth and not a loaded gun like the old west. Television has made this game popular and the pesky guys are part of the equation. There are still some gaming rooms where there are quiet and respectable players but just a celebrities, poker stars are having to be part of the melodrama. A walkman is recommended for those wanting a little more peace.
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#21
10-26-04, 11:55 PM
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tajauk
i think here you are also seeing a significant difference in american and european play. isnt table talk disallowed in europe? i remember dave colclough and robert williamson having a discussion about it at this years world series. |
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#24
10-27-04, 03:44 AM
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If the trash talking gets you off your game, it has done exactly what the guy, whoever he may be, was hoping for....It's no different than when Michael Jordan or Larry Bird would get in a guys head. Those two were some of the biggest trash talkers ever.
Yeah, in a small cash game it's inappropriate and you could and probably should get roughed up......just the same as if a guy in your local pickup basketball game ran his mouth the whole time. But in a high pressure- high stakes atmosphere, its a different story. If Mike the Mouth or Arieh can get you off your game, then they've already almost won the battle....and with millions on the line, you better believe they are gonna take advantage of it. Someone talked about sportsmanship...well, this is POKER...not badminton or tennis. This was a game that for the longest time was played with guns on the table, or on persona. This is not some "set a good example for the kids" game....it's gambling, with a lot of money at stake....class is nice, but if I'm going for 5 million, how classy I come off isnt gonna be entering my mind that much |
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#25
10-27-04, 10:26 AM
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Well put!
Very well put
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