Guilt...

[Talking Poker]

So, I was playing at Party last night, targeting the juiciest of the juicy fishies, al la the (which I absolutely love, btw). I had a number of tables open and was playing 3-4 at a time. Conditions on all tables I was playing were favorable, but there was this one table in particular where I was sitting directly to the left of a HUGE maniac. ~75% VP$IP, $55% PRF. His screen name may as well have been ATM.

Anyhoo, as expected, her was terrible, but he was apparently on a sick rush. He said he started with $30 and at one point I saw him over $800. He sucked out on me a number of times, but he paid me off even more, so it was all good.

There was no chat going on at the table, until I just couldn't help myself at one point. Some people say they aren't a good enough player to lay down certain hands even when they know they are beat... well, I'm not a good enough player to not use my all time favorite chat box line when the oh-so-rare opportunity presents itself.

Here's the scenario: Preflop action doesn't matter, but it's best when it's capped. On the flop, dork bets, I raise, dork call. On the turn, dork bets, I raise, dork calls. On the river, dork bets, I raise, dork calls. I scoop the pot of course and simply can not resist dropping this gem: "It's like you didn't even see me raising you."

Well, I said it last night, and he said, "I was drawing, fucktard." I said, "By betting into me on every street?" I VERY quickly explained that I was totally cool with it, but I just thought it was funny. Well, somehow, this guy got all chatty and really friendly. He was on a sick rush, so he was in a good mood. Of course, everyone at the table knew it was only a matter of time. And sure enough, he started to lose. More and more and more. And then he said a few things that made me start feeling sorry for him... things like, "OK, I'm going to play until I get back to $700 (which became $500 and then $300) and then I HAVE to get some sleep, etc, etc... He'd hit some big hands from time to time, but his roll was definitely headed downhill. He got almost all in at one point, won the hand, and then went on another rush, up to like $470. I asked him if he was really going to quit when he got to $500, and he said he didn't know. I was 100% sure he'd leave broke. If I didn't take his money, these other sharks would, so I stayed of course. I actually did mention a couple of times that he could quit now (with $100 or $200), still be up, and come back tomorrow and play lower limits. He didn't listen of course and just before 5 AM, I busted him with Kings full (KK!). He left the table, and I am not exaggerating when I tell you that in order of who should be posting the BB, everyone at the table sat out one at a time, all the way around (well, except for the final guy - the super tight player who was of course ripping into the maniac and also telling me how terrible of a player I was - this tells you a lot about him right there). I've never seen that happen before. Not EVERYONE like that.

Anyway, no real point to this story, I guess... except to point out how this was the first time that I have EVER felt a bit of guilt about taking money from someone at an online table (we were talking about this in a different thread the other day). I think it was because he liked me, and I was friendly to him, while I was targeting his stack the whole time. I didn't egg him on or anything, and really did suggest that he quit a couple of times, but I still felt weird about it. I guess I felt double faced or something.... and that's not how I roll.

[PShabi]

Man,

I've been through the same scenario at least a couple times. All the way down to everyone sitting out. I've also been really chatty w/ ATMs like you mention. I even say shit like, "Damn, I got lucky to hold up there," as he paid off for the 1,000th time. I've seen all of the things you mentioned, just maybe not ALL at the same table.

The only difference, I feel no guilt.

[GTDawg]

What's the everybody sitting out thing?

[lightfungus]

He means once the free-money guy left the table, everyone else left too. I do it all the time.

[Talking Poker]

Yup... as soon as the ATM left, the table broke up. I've seen that happen before, but never quite like last night, where everyone apparently turned off the "Auto Post Blind" as he was getting all in, and then one at a time sat out when asked to post the BB.

"Guilt" isn't the best word to describe what I was feeling. Maybe "sympathy." Like, I knew how bad he was and that he was going to lose all his money, but he didn't know I knew. Not only that, but he didn't even know himself.

[Boobie Lover]

I've seen this happen various times. It can be humbling to understand that to be profitable I have to prey on those that play worse, or have less emotional control than myself.

[melioris]

When you strip it bare to the core, poker is a cruel heartless bitch of a game. And to succeed you got to be as close to that core as possible. As you know this is something I struggle with.

For what it is worth, check out nature. The cold-hearted cruelty required to survive in the wild makes poker look like a cupcake.

[jillaj]

I like to egg them on. Comment on how unlucky they are to not hit their draws or how lucky I am etc.. As you stated earlier the guy is leaving without any money, so I might as well be the one with it. Since he only came in with 30 he wasn't down too much of his own loot.

[Talking Poker]

That's a good point... but in nature, you don't see the predator being all buddy buddy with the prey, while attacking him. The prey knows he's prey and knows the predator doesn't have his best interests in mind.

It's not the predatory nature of the game that I have any problems with - because I don't. In order for me to win, I need others to lose. I know this. The other night though, it was just a weird situation, since he had no idea what was happening and liked me for some reason.

[Spidey44]

What limit were you playing? I assume way above what I play so I'm assuming (probably bad assumption concerning the degerate-ness possibilities involving gambling) he has the cash to lose. Thinking it over, he probably doesn't

[bdawg31]

I think you just experienced getting a 'face' associated with one of the many losing players. Its usually pretty easy to not think about all the money being lost by people to make it so there can be winning players. But, if you really think about ALL THE MONEY LOST in poker, its crazy.

Think about some of the bigger winners that post here. Say we have 10 people that have netted 10k each on avg during the entire poker 'career' (that is probably a low number if you were to take the top 10 netting players that post on this site). That doesn't just mean that other players out there have lost $100,000 - they have lost a lot more of that to make up for the rake.

Now, think about when someone wins a million dollars in a tournament - that means that over one million dollars was lost by other players at some point.

That is a lot of people losing a lot of money. Maybe a lot of that is spread out over a ton of people losing small amounts, but i suspect that a fair amount is also made up of some players losing quite a bit.

Getting off-topic a bit - its hard for me to wrap my brain around that many people losing that much money. I guess since i have been a winning player, and the people i talk to are generally winning players at some level (i.e. my friends or members of this site) i literally can not relate to who is losing that much money. But, evidently people do.

Just like i can not relate to the way some of the people online play. Its like, at some point one would think that people would wake up and read one of the gazillion books and/or articles on basic poker strategy.

[Talking Poker]

The limit he was playing has absolutely nothing to do with being able to afford to lose the cash, especially when you are talking about a bad player who is admittedly playing WAY over his bankroll (he started with $30). You know that.

This was $5/$10 though. I've decided to go back to what used to be my personal momeymaker for a while and see how I do. I've had success as high as $15/30 (dabbled in the $30$60, but that's outside my comfort zone), but decided to move down and see how I'd do at this level again. It's weird - at first all the numbers seemed so small, but I've gotten used to them again already. $10/$20, which is lower than I was playing a few months ago, actually seem like big numbers to me now. Funny how that works.

[Talking Poker]

You would think. But that goes against the following principles:

1. People are lazy.
2. People gamble to try to make a quick buck. People LOVE the idea of money for nothing.
3. People consider poker to be "gambling" - after all, any two cards can win!

And yes, the amount of money people are losing playing poker is astounding. Thanks to the rake, something like 2 out of 5 players are profitable, meaning 3 out of 5 are losers. That's 60%.....

When you step back and look at poker numbers as a whole, they can be shocking.

[bdawg31]

Yeah, i am doing the same thing - getting back to basics. The system we used to call 'Moneymaker' before Chris Moneymaker stole that name. I have dropped to 3/6 short-seated for a while to regroup. So far, so good (its only been a week though). At first, the numbers seemed low to me too - but i have gotten used to them. And i have logged two winning sessions that rival my bigger sessions of 5/10. I did the same thing in NL cash games - dropped down. Same deal - i adapted to the low numbers relatively quickly.

I have to say that if you are ever running bad - there is nothing like dropping down a level or two to log a few wins and get the bankroll back in order.

[Spidey44]

I know the limit doesn't mean he could afford it...I think I said something to the effect in the post. Started with 30 at 5/10??? Jeez...

[eejit101]

i dont think u can start with $30 at 5/10, isnt the minimum buy in $100?

[Talking Poker]

He never said he started at $5/$10. He said he started the session with $30.

[eejit101]

then we was on a run, shame it ended in the hands of a donkey