Absolute Poker is rigged... no seriously

[Wes]

Trust me, I'm not the guy in the online poker is rigged, but this is some serious shit here.



and if you don't want to wade through that, here's a must read

[thrash1294]

I left a post on the rigged theory and you left me -rep and called me a retard. So get on board my Short bus

[Talking Poker]

Haven't "waded" yet, but if this is true, it's the end of Absolute.

OOPS!

Idiots.

[Talking Poker]

Can someone with a little time please summarize this for our forum?

Specifically:

-What's the "proof?"
-Why would Seif make it obvious and risk everything after being a loser for however long? Why not use it sparingly and be a modest winner for the past (and many future) months?
-Has Absolute responded?

Thanks to anyone who digs through all that. I'm off to watch some football before today's WCOOP.

[bigd007x]

ap is the gayest poker site on the face of the earth.

[de-coder]

This seems to mostly stem from some anecdotal "evidence", a few HH's and a PT screenshot.

There's a player that has some pretty strange numbers over a 500 hand sample (from the screenshot). The basis for condemnation here is that over this sample the guy is way ahead, playing a lot of hands and has a river AF of infinity (which means that he never calls a river bet - at least that's what's been posted).

The anecdotal evidence along with the HH's seem to indicate that he always folds the river when behind and bets/raises when ahead including some really strange calls (but why else would they be posted). I don't think it's anything a really bad wouldn't do and the play on the other side sucks too - so...

It's unclear as to whether the player in question is actually seif or not. Seif is mentioned in the early posts, but then never again. Personally I find it hard to believe that any poker pro would be stupid enough to cheat in an obvious fashion. I have no doubt that many would cheat if they could, but I think they're smart enough to be subtle about it.

As for the rest of it - I see no real proof that anything nefarious is going on. Further, there's definitely no evidence that the site itself is at fault or that it's been hacked or has a backdoor to allow someone to see all the hole cards. There may be suspicious behaviour here, but it could just be some nut running good or perhaps his opponents have downloaded some kind of virus that allows him to see their cards (this is perhaps more plausible than the site having a backdoor that was hacked).

The only final weird thing that I just saw is this:

potripper's pokerdb:
Date Buyin Tournament/Event Place Entrants Winnings
9/12/2007 $1,000 NL Hold'em 1 98 $30,000.00
7/5/2007 $5 NL Hold'em 234 234 —
7/5/2007 $50 NL Hold'em 140 148 —

That's pretty strange, of course I can't verify that anything I've read is actually true at all.

I think the hype level went way up this because 2+2 moved the original thread to the mod forum so no one could see it - I think they've released all the posts by now though.

I got most of this information from the FCP forum which is outquoting sections of the 2+2 thread.

[Talking Poker]

ty de-coder. +Rep for the summary.

[Wes]

de-coder's summary isn't very accurate. doesn't seem like he read the entire thread, or in that fact any of the hands. Just read this post, and ask yourself if you think there isn't anything up.

[Wes]

And read this thread in the high stakes limit forum

[melioris]

to avoid scandal I will ask a somewhat muddled question. I skimmed these threads and didn't see this stated, so I ask is the named pro from the internettexasholdem link in the OP thought to be the person behind the suspicious accounts named in the 2+2 threads?

[melioris]

btw I think the most damning bit of evidence was stated by someone I am too lazy to refind and link. But the point was that the high stakes limit forums are filled with conspiracy threads and each one of them has been shot down immediately. This appears to be the first one that has legs and no valid detractors other than "meh just a lucky fish I guess".

Second most damning bit of evidence (granted, from several different small samples-maybe >3k hands total), AF per street for these players (who run something like 70/55 preflop, SD maybe 35% and W$SD +60%-those stats being the third most damning evidence) is 3/3/>20, like they never, ever, call the river.

[Talking Poker]

That's what I find the most interesting. Individually, the HHs are goofy, yes, but I see goofy stuff all the time. Check the Beats and Brags section for tons of examples.

But postflop aggression factor that goes 3/3/20+ is just nuts. No one plays (the river) that perfectly.

[de-coder]

I didn't read all the 2+2 thread, as I said I got most of the info from the FCP thread on the topic (as far as I know it's never been closed or modified by moderators). As for hands - I looked at a number of samples that were posted (including the ones you referenced and others), but 2 points:

1) I can look through my PT and find a bunch of weird calls and bad plays too (there's even a good sample in the hand discussion forum here)... That isn't really evidence. I did look at the 3 hands in the link you posted, but they don't prove anything other than none of these people play very well.
2) as I stated, I'm unable to verify whether these things are true or not.

My view is that there isn't enough actual, verifiable, evidence to prove whether AB was hacked or whether someone (or some group of people) have access to all the hole cards. Some people have chosen to cash out of AB, others haven't.

I don't, and haven't ever, played there. If you play there and this makes you uncomfortable, which is certainly a valid view, then stop.

This is the kind of thing that get all the conspiracy theorists worked up into a frenzy, particularly since 2+2 seemed to close the topic to the public for a short time (but that isn't evidence either).

FYI - I have sent an email to AB, with links to several threads, and have requested comment. I'm not holding my breath on that though, but it will be interesting to see how much traction this story needs before they are forced to respond. FWIW, I've been unable to find any reference to these fraud reports on their website - but I'll keep an eye out.

[de-coder]

I'd like to point out that although his numbers are goofy (and they are) - I was only able to find references to pretty small samples (<550 hands). Also, just because he has a really high AF on the river doesn't mean he's playing the river perfectly - he's clearly playing it in a raise/fold fashion, but that could be a strategy. There's no evidence to indicate that he's always raising with the best and folding the worst - there are lots of anecdotal stories to the affect, but no actual proof. I think that only AB would be able to find that proof by looking at all the actual hands played and seeing if he plays a perfect river.

I can provide an example - this is one of the hands posted as proof from the 2+2 forum:

Table: 14 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($765740 in chips)
Seat 8 - CRAZYMARCO ($214260 in chips)
POTRIPPER - Ante $450
CRAZYMARCO - Ante $450
POTRIPPER - Posts small blind $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Posts big blind $4500
*** POCKET CARDS ***
POTRIPPER - Calls $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
*** FLOP *** [4h Kd Kh]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $9000
CRAZYMARCO - Calls $9000
*** TURN *** [4h Kd Kh] [7s]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $13500
CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310
POTRIPPER - Calls $186810
*** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings)
CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings)
POTRIPPER Collects $428520 from main pot

This is supposed to prove that potripper was able to see crazymarcos cards - I don't think it does, but some people on 2+2 think it does. There are other hands as bad as this one... He might just suck people... I honestly think that if this were happening at a lower limit we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Talking Poker]

I don't know that that hand singlehandedly PROVES anything, but it's a valid piece of the puzzle. If this guy has the best hand EVERY time he puts money in on the river (excluding failed bluffs, which should also be easy to spot), that's something. And if he's never calling on the river with the worst hand, that means something too.

You can't play for very long without having a second best hand on the river. It's just part of the game.

Back to the hand above.... I actually think you could use that as a case against this guy being able to see your hole cards. I mean, if he really could see his opponent's hole cards, would he want to make it "obvious" by making plays like that? Why not fold and wait for a more reasonable spot, or grind your opponent down gradually?

[de-coder]

And this is my point exactly - that behaviour has yet to be proven to be the case.

I posted that hand because it was originally posted as proof on 2+2 when it actually proves nothing. It may be part of a pattern, but maybe it isn't - we'll just have to wait and see.

[2Tone]

Lots to digest here, but so far, for me at least, I didn't find any smoking gun. It seems pretty easy to find plenty examples of bizarre hands at High-stakes heads up. (, anyone?)

Someone claiming to be from Absolute has denied everything (), and I'm inclined to believe him. A business (with the at least the potential to) make millions just has too much to lose by letting something like this happen.

Then again, I wouldn't have believed Enron deliberately caused massive brown-outs in California either ...

[Zybomb]

PokerStars Game #12067296948: Hold'em No Limit ($3/$6) - 2007/09/15 - 04:16:08 (ET)
Table 'Miriam IV' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Luckycharm84 ($190.60 in chips)
Seat 2: kjell_morten ($576 in chips)
Seat 3: floes ($600 in chips)
Seat 4: jen&jes ($578.10 in chips)
Seat 5: Raidan909 ($621 in chips)
Seat 6: hook2120 ($690.20 in chips)
kjell_morten: posts small blind $3
floes: posts big blind $6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Raidan909 [2d Jh]
jen&jes: calls $6
Raidan909: folds
hook2120: calls $6
Luckycharm84: calls $6
kjell_morten: calls $3
floes: checks
*** FLOP *** [8c 4c 4d]
kjell_morten: bets $18
floes: folds
jen&jes: calls $18
hook2120: calls $18
Luckycharm84: folds
*** TURN *** [8c 4c 4d] [3d]
kjell_morten: checks
jen&jes: checks
hook2120: checks
*** RIVER *** [8c 4c 4d 3d] [6d]
kjell_morten: checks
jen&jes: bets $154
hook2120: raises $512.20 to $666.20 and is all-in
kjell_morten: folds
jen&jes: calls $400.10 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
hook2120: shows [6s 6h] (a full house, Sixes full of Fours)
jen&jes: mucks hand
hook2120 collected $1189.20 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1192.20 | Rake $3
Board [8c 4c 4d 3d 6d]
Seat 1: Luckycharm84 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: kjell_morten (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 3: floes (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: jen&jes mucked [Tc 9c]
Seat 5: Raidan909 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: hook2120 showed [6s 6h] and won ($1189.20) with a full house, Sixes full of Fours

[MAYHEM45]

uh?

[Zybomb]

Just tryin to show that there are idiots who do that shit (call with T high) and lose also

(see one of suspected HH's where hero called with T high to beat opponents 9 high bluff for more info if you're confused)

[Talking Poker]

His point is people make retarded calls with T high. When they are wrong, they are idiots. When they are right, it's because they can see their opponent's hole cards.

I think we all agree that one hand isn't enough evidence to prove anything.... but if the behavior is consistently repeated over hundreds of hands, that's something worth looking into.

[Invigilator]

He jams it up to 666 holding 66 at a 3/6 table!

This isn't an issue of hacking, this is exploiting people using unholy and demonic powers! That's why there is no trail of hard proof. Get in an exorcist and the problem will be solved!

disclaimer: The above post is not to be taken litterally or as any indication of my belief or disbelief in the claims being made or disputed by any parties. I just find conspiracy theorizin' a wack load of fun.

[Invigilator]

Life is rigged!

[de-coder]

I remember watching an ept broadcast - and after a bad beat the commentator said, "this site is so rigged."

I love it.

[de-coder]

I received this reply from AB...

Dear Valued Customer,

Thank you for contacting us.

Yes we are aware of all this posts, we always try to be aware of what our customers, think of our service and if they enjoy playing with us. That’s why we are always checking into all of the concerns that our players have and we have taken actions already in this case, because of our company policies we cant let you know what those actions are, but we can let you know, that it wasn’t any type of hacking, it was just someone who didn’t know how to play poker and a hole lot of luck.


If there is anything else we can assist you with please let us know.

Sincerely,

Jose
Team Absolute ~ Security & Control Department
Phone: 1.877.887.6537
"To Continue to be the best and most trusted"