reading players

[BrianSwa]

This hand here brought up a interesting topic for me....


PokerStars Game #2167885297: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2005/07/23 - 11:38:46 (ET)
Table 'Penthesilea' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: jlf88 ($9.35 in chips)
Seat 2: stormswa ($12.35 in chips)
Seat 3: Smokee600 ($6.50 in chips)
Seat 4: 7colli ($3.85 in chips)
Seat 5: Moe_Mentum ($3.20 in chips)
Seat 6: Richwon8 ($2.15 in chips)
Richwon8: posts small blind $0.05
jlf88: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to stormswa [Ks As]
stormswa: raises $0.30 to $0.40
Smokee600: folds
7colli: folds
Moe_Mentum: folds
Richwon8: calls $0.35
jlf88: folds
*** FLOP *** [Qh 5s 6d]
Smokee600 is sitting out
Richwon8: bets $1.75 and is all-in
stormswa said, "AK suited"
stormswa said, "probolly got AQ only giving me 3 outs"
stormswa: folds
Richwon8 collected $0.90 from pot
Richwon8: shows [Ah Qd] (a pair of Queens)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.90 | Rake $0
Board [Qh 5s 6d]
Seat 1: jlf88 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: stormswa folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Smokee600 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: 7colli folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Moe_Mentum (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Richwon8 (small blind) collected ($0.90)


how good are you at this, reading a players hole cards exactly. I know TP said during his WSOP he knew alot of the times what they had. Online how often do you know exactly what they have by how they bet?

[junYUN]

alright brian, we'll give you what you want

what a great read!!!

[BrianSwa]

thanks, but I actully want to know how you figure it out. Is it bet amounts mostly or is it time they take to act? I can see in a live game how this is sooo much easier how do you do it online. Personal experiences.

trying to start up some poker content here, work with me.

[Aequitas58]

It's a process:

-Pay attention at the table.
-Keep notes on players.
-When they bet, raise, call, etc ... put them on a range of hands based on your prior "read" of the player.
-From that range of hands, deduce a smaller sample size based on how they are betting during the hand in question.
-Don't be a donkey by putting too much stock in "how long" people take to act. It's not as big of a tell as you might think.

You're welcome.

[BlibbityBlabbity]

How confident would you have been in this read if you actually had ANYTHING after the flop (say JJ)?

[junYUN]

he would have called

[lightfungus]

With that limit of poker I wouldn't even attempt reads. The guy went all in with something you cant buy 2 scoops of ice cream with.

[Zybomb]

Baskin Robbins, Tuesday 2 Scoops for........ ah nevermind

Bet size is the most reliable tell (and as you know ur players more and more, how much they bet when they have certain hands, TP, Set,flush/straight draw etc) do they check bet big bet small, check raise etc.

There are other times where for some reason a hand just sticks out in your head and you cant really say why....but you have to go with it

Like the time I was playing a home game tourny, which was down to 4 people. Im the short stack, but not *that* short. The SB is the chip leader. UTG folds, and I raise with A3, the SB calls and the BB folds.Flop comes 9,3,5 i believe. First to act, he puts in an overbet which is equal to a little more than half my stack (thus putting me to a decision for all my chips) Immediately I have him put on A10, which has him drawing to a 3 outer. With only bottom pair, I quickly tell him to put in another (whatever I had left) he kind of shakes his head and replies I dont even know if I want to -- he obviously makes the call though.......he flips over A7 (basically the same thing) Really sucked when a 7 came on the river and knocked me out though.........

Sometimes you have a feeling and need to go with it -- i wouldnt put too much enphasis on this though. Id concentrate more on extracting the most moneyw hen you have the best hand, and losing the least when you dont

[BrianSwa]

hell yea call big time, no seriously JJ would be a easy fold also. The better quesiton would be say I have KQ would I still make this laydown. Yes I would I was pretty positive he had the AQ so no way I was calling with just 3 outs.

[Zybomb]

Based on the play so far, what made you put him on only AQ?

[BrianSwa]

his bet on the flop, looked to me like he was protecting his hand. Like he was giving up and saying well if you got a set or 2 pair so be it. As soon as he made the bet I was like AQ, that is all he could have, what other hand could he have but that . He flop a set or 2 pair, no way not with that overbet. Looked to me like he knew his hand was probolly vulnerable and wanted to get the money in now.

[Zybomb]

In that case would he not of played QJ the same way?

[BrianSwa]

I dont think so, or at least I wouldnt. QJ too weak in my opinion to make that kinda raise, or even to call my raise preflop with. I might want to make a smaller bet with QJ, one that I could still get away from if I got re-raised. Basicly his bet told me " I Probolly have the best hand, you gonna have to pay to outdraw me"

[omahilo]

do you realize your playing .05/.10 and that he would prolly make the same play with QJ.

[Zybomb]

First keep in mind you are play .05/.10, calling a raise with QJs isnt out of the question. Next when they hit their TP you said you thought he had AQ because " Wouldnt QJ fall in this same catagory, (or even KQ) Im just saying to lay down KQ here wouldnt be automatic like you are making it out to be. I can see him making this bet on a draw, with any pair, or any piece of the flop all of which youd be ahead with. I could also see him hitting a big hand and wanting you to go through this exact thinking and maybe youd be in big trouble

Not taking away from your read -- it was a good one, I belivee based on the action and overall read on the player, he could of made that bet with a variety of hands, not just AQ -- to lay down AK is pretty obvious in that situation, but had you had KQ, Id think youd be ahead more than you were behind

[BrianSwa]

no im actully enjoying this little chat we are having, I love when you answer threads. I see you're point that he could make that play with some other hands. Guess it was just gut feeling I had, agree these players are pretty bad but this one in paticular wasnt playing that bad.

have to go to hospitol....to be continued

[junYUN]

brian you are so full of shit

you would have called with TT, JJ, KQ, QJ .. and he could also be making the same move with that same range of hands.

[Talking Poker]

I wonder if I should point for the 1000th time how Brian uses the table chat to give away information, and how bad of an idea I think that is. Here, he's not only telling everyone how he plays AK preflop, but he's saying how he plays it after the flop when someone makes a bet like that into him. Dude... it's a bad habit. Why won't you break it? You can't possibly think that giving out information like that all the time can HELP your game, right? Surely you realize it hurts you. Do you ever muck your winning hands, or do you show them every time? Just wondering...

Wit that said, if you said it here to entice him to show his hand to you, then I'm more ok with it. I'm actually really surprised he showed you AQ though. If I was him, I would have shown you ONLY a hand worse than AK, and mucked everything else (and told you it was worse than AK if you asked).

The point is, I think you chat way too much.

As for reads.... every poker hand tells a story. And every piece of information you know about every player involved in the hand up until this point in time helps tell the story. Betting patterns tell the story. Timing tells the story. Certainly there are tons of in person thing (gestures, hand motions, eye movements) that help tell the story. The board cards and YOUR hole cards help tell the story. Sometimes other players comments help tell the story. Anyway, it's the job of a good poker player to take all this information, to process all of this data, to figure out what his opponent is holding. The more information you have (say, by the river), the easier it is to complete the story.

Typically, I find that I put my opponent on a range of hands and as the hand progresses (as the story develops), I narrow down that range. Usually, when it's decision time, I have a range of hands and rough probabilities for each of them in my head. I then use that information to make my decision. With that said, there certainly are times when I put an opponent on a specific hand, and I actually surprise myself at how good I can read people now and then.

When I post my $1000 tourney recap, there will be a few times where I illustrate this for you. For example, when I was holding 77 one time, and my opponent pushed in behind me. I was getting around 3:1 on the call, which isn't enough if he's got an overpair, but is PLENTY if he only had overcards. I put him on 88, 99, TT, JJ, or a range of overcard combination. Estimating there was a 50/50 shot that he had the overpair vs. the overcards (and also a slight possibility he had 55 or 66), and also KNOWING that at least 1 and possibly two Aces had been folded at the other end of the table (probably outs for him if he had the overcards), I was able to make the call for 3:1 He ended up having TT and I lost (this was the first time all tourney that I put my money in as an underdog)... but I stand by the logic I used to make the decision, and I'd make it again.

Damn, this got long.

[ChipFish]

Basically, about a year ago I told Brian to shut the hell up in his chatbox.
I wonder when He'll catch on?

[Talking Poker]

If that's true, I'm guessing it's a lost cause. It may not be a HUGE deal online, but if you give away that much information in a live game, showing hands regularly and such, you're dead meat.

I say this, because I'm the guy who kills you for it.

[BlibbityBlabbity]

Brian,

I have watched you play a few times and I agree you talk about what your hands were, why you are folding to someones bet, what you think other people had as you fold to their bet, how you would have played hands, etc, etc WAY too much.

You also play a VERY tight style (even at the limit game I was watching), which while a good style to stay out of trouble, is the type of style where you don't really want anyone...
1) noticing HOW tight you are playing (tight table image is one thing, but you want some action when you have a hand) and
2) knowing why you fold or EXACTLY what cards you play unless you HAVE to show them down.

People take notes at lower limits too and when there is any doubt what you have someone can just get you talking and you'll tell them.

I say this because I agree with others so far that this IS a really big deal and something that could urt you against the wrong table/players.

Be careful, chatting about random crap is one thing, chatting about cards (unless there is a SPECIFIC point to it) is not a good idea.

[omahilo]

Your not Daniel Negreanu so I would just suggest shutting your trap while your at the table.

[BrianSwa]

ok point taken, I talk way 2 much. Junyun im not you so no I wouldnt call a allin on TPTK. Like BB said I play tight as hell and lay down good hands alot, even when I'am probolly ahead.

Im tired as hell so dont want to type too much, but want to get back to Zybomb for a sec. You said that you would think you were ahead with KQ so say you had that hand, would you of called the all in with it?

[Zybomb]

Based on the action so far in that hand, and assuming I had no read on the player, I think Id be ahead with KQ more than Im behind

[ChipFish]

Try this....
Anytime you want to tell someone what you had or someone asks you what you had...
Your answer is and will always be "Jacks".
First time simply say "Jacks"
Second time say "Jacks"
Third time say "How about that? Jacks again".
etc. etc.