A Kings Aces Example

[Zybomb]

For all the "never fold KK preflop" crowd, do you all stack off here like this guy did?

Full Tilt Poker Game #12144225295: FTOPS Event #10 (84233293), Table 315 - 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:28:37 ET - 2009/05/10
Seat 1: Lucky1223 (10,900)
Seat 3: januaryman74 (4,265)
Seat 4: jjmoney05 (3,765)
Seat 5: littlesusiebaby (5,425)
Seat 6: xraytilt (4,500)
Seat 7: TheNewOne2 (4,850)
Seat 8: zybomb (6,290)
Seat 9: izik_74 (5,005)
Lucky1223 posts the small blind of 20
januaryman74 posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to zybomb [Jd 4d]
jjmoney05 folds
littlesusiebaby raises to 80
xraytilt folds
TheNewOne2 calls 80
zybomb folds
izik_74 calls 80
Lucky1223 folds
januaryman74 has 15 seconds left to act
januaryman74 raises to 320
littlesusiebaby has 15 seconds left to act
littlesusiebaby raises to 1,480
TheNewOne2 folds
izik_74 folds
januaryman74 has 15 seconds left to act
littlesusiebaby: i got u
januaryman74 has requested TIME
TheNewOne2: course u do
littlesusiebaby: lol
januaryman74 raises to 4,265, and is all in
littlesusiebaby calls 2,785
januaryman74 shows [Kc Kh]
littlesusiebaby shows [Ah Ac]

When this is going on and january is tanking and requesting time, im like it's clear as day that suzie has Aces and obv this other guy has kings. No one has been reraising preflop bc of the low blinds and big stack sizes and no one is going to risk their tournament like this. Every pot has been played for pot control

Yea you could 4 bet AK or QQ or whatever I guess, but it just doesn't really happen at this point (and even if it does which is never we lost 320 instead of risking our 125 BB stack allin pre)....., I'd snap fold the Kings in that spot , this is just always Aces at this point. And it's not results oriented, bc while they were tanking I gave them their hands and said the Kings should fold.

Flame away or whatever, but I see people stacking off like this all the time and hardly ever if at all see anything but Aces from the other player

[Fildy]

See, I have actually fallen victim to folding Kings preflop when I wasn't beat. Action told me I was, but it was a $2 tourney so I should have got it in regardless.

I do agree with you however, and its not just aces either, its hands like QQ-77(rare).
I don't know if they don't think, or if they think "oh well if he has aces I'm gone"
(I will admit I've had this mentality before when sticking it in after action gets sticky.)

If I had saved the HH I got snapped last night with 99 after 4 betting from utg with aces.

My biggest problem is JJ/QQ in 3 bet pots. I tend to call with position, but have a really hard time just folding if I'm oop and often times end up 4 betting and committing myself.

[claudioxcore]

I've folding kings preflop 3 times in my life. Twice I was right.

Then again, I'm one of those guys who thinks "Why stack off 250 bbs when I'm at best 4 to 1, when I can play postflop and find a better spot to get in my money"

you know?

[claudioxcore]

you play bad.

jk i love you fildy.

[Talking Poker]

Yes. Or I call and get it in on a non-Ace flop.

This is NOT AA anywhere close to 100% of the time in donkaments, especially on Sundays and FTOPS, etc.

In fact, I think it's actually AK (alone - ignoring the rest of his range) more than it's AA.

[Zybomb]

See I think it comes down to stack sizes.

Yes if this is a 1500 starting chip stack it's an insta call (whatever reshove for 70 more)

But with 125 BBs in your stack and a table that has not seen one reraise previous (let a lone a 4 bet), and every single pot this far has been played for pot control by every player, it think its AA face up.

Had the table been different or the player been very aggressive etc etc it changes things yes

But this reminded me of the 30000 starting chip stack $2k Event at the Borgata I played a while back where blinds are 50/100 (second level) and someone opens for 400 player reraises to 1600 original raiser makes it 4500 other guy makes it like 12k original guy shoves. Then other guy tanks for hours like mannnnn i think i ran into aces? YOU OBVIOUSLY RAN INTO ACES U BUFFOON. Calls anyway 17.5k more (aka 175BBs MORE) and of course the guy has Aces (does he ever have anything else here, hint:no) I sit there and can't believe I watched a guy blow through a 300 BB stack in one hand with one pair

[Kurn]

For all the "never fold KK preflop" crowd, do you all stack off here like this guy did?

Absolutely. That's not AA often enough to fold KK. Not even remotely close. Folding KK here is terrible, IMO.I'd say it's AA maybe 40% of the time.

[Zybomb]

So is what you're saying that in a table where no pot has been 3 bet yet in 2.5 levels (and hands like JJ and QQ have been shown down) and stacks are 125 BBs deep, that this FOUR bet is NOT Aces 60% of the time? In other words MORE than half the time this is AK or QQ? A player is putting in 1/3 of his chips at the 20/40 blind level with this? AND the table talk added in?
If it is ok (I just disagree)..... If so, whats the point of shoving, shouldnt u flat and get it in on the flop since I cant imagine AK or QQ calls a 5 bet