If a guy is shoving every single hand...

[Talking Poker]

... what's the best counter-strategy?

Assume HU SNG, 75 BB starting stacks, your normal buy in, and he is literally shoving ATC, every single hand.

Is your answer exactly the same if this is a cash game instead of a SNG, or does it change at all?

[melioris]

this is a timely thread, as I played a cash game against this style today. More on that later. I am not sure about ranges, and this is a simple math problem for a HU SNG, but I call with 22+ Ax, any two broadways, 78+ for 75BB and increase the range as I get shorter.



In my cash game the villain opened EVERY HAND, and 3-bet 45%. I 3-bet and then small 5-bet w/ my button opening range, flopped top two (KT on a KT5 board) got allin for a 490BB pot vs 22, and then villain turned a 2. WWWEEEE

[JDMcNugent7]

yes it changes huge if it's cash game or SNG.

Cash game you can and should be WAYYY more selective.

SNG obv just limp every hand and wait till u have a decent enough hand to call.

[Talking Poker]

Interesting. I'd like to see more responses on this.

I certainly wasn't calling with 78+, any two broadway, etc. I understand calling with a range that is ahead of ATC, but I wasn't sure if that was the optimal way to play it. I mean, why not tighten up (from that massive calling range) to only calling with hands that we know are ahead of 80% or 90% of the time? With 75 BB stacks, it's not like we are going to blind out or something, right?

I got the money in good in all 6 matches with this guy, and he of course sucked out on the first 5 and then quit me after my hand held up on #6.

Afterwards, I was thinking about it and wondering if my range was too big, given the structure and everything...

[Talking Poker]

Also, why limp if you intend to fold to his shove? That's just throwing chips away. Remember, this guy is shoving EVERY single hand (preflop), so it's not like he cares that if he sees us limp, he knows we're going to call and will start checking back and instead or something.

[thrash1294]

any pair and A10 or better

[Wes]

why should you be more selective in a cash game than in a SNG? Seems like the opposite would be true since you can just reload if you bust in a cash game and SNG you lose if you make a marginal call.

I'd prolly call like JTo+ a6o+, k8o+, 44+ in a cash game. 22 sucks against random.

[JDMcNugent7]

okay i was thinking if cash game he'd just quit after he lost. If he's going do to this for like 5k hands or something sure you can just call everytime you think ur hand is even slightly better. But that never happens so I meant so he doesnt double up and leave I would be tighter.

Also yes fold the hands you are going to fold to a shove. I just meant when you are going to play a hand just limp.

[Kurn]

OK. In a SNG, HU assuming high blinds, theoretically the ONLY way to deny an opponent shoving any 2 cards +CEV is to call with any 2 cards. If you fold at all, those folds give him positive equity.

That's in the long run. Reasonably, waiting until you get a hand that has +equity over a random hand makes the most sense since you aren't going to play a million SNGs HU against this guy.

In a cash game, it is much different, and you'd better be sure he's going to stick around if you call and lose. let him keep shoving and keep taking your blind. Just keep reloading and you'll eventually get him.

This is where live games are better than online. In online NL games you can only buy-in to the designated table maximum. In most casinos, while there is a stated max buy-in, you can usually buy in up to the however much the biggest stack at the table has.

[Talking Poker]

This is pretty much exactly what I thought too, FWIW.

[Talking Poker]

OK, so let's focus on the HU SNG, since that's what I was playing when this actually happened.

I disagree with your comment about calling with any 2 cards, because in the long run, all you are doing is flipping and losing to the rake. With SHORT(er) stacks where the blinds are meaningful, I get having to loosen your range way up... but with 75 BB deep stacks, you can certainly fold 8 straight hands, dropping you down to 70 BBs before calling with a pretty strong hand, right? if you win that, he's got 10 BBs and finishing him off should be pretty easy.

When this played out, I went with ranges close to what most people are saying (a little bit tighter), but was questioning myself after the fact, wondering if I should have been more patient.

FWIW, here's how the 6 $200+10 HU SNGs went (# of hands played before I called in ()):

AQs < 94 (2)
A8 < 55 (6)
KJ < QTs (2)
AQ < 42 (2)
AK < A2 (1)
AJ > K3s (1)

And then he quit me, took the $ to $10/$20 PLO and potted every action until he was > $5k, and then he went to $25/50 PLO and I had to stop watching.

As for me: 6 matches, 14 hands, -$860.

I know I said I was questioning if I should have played tighter, but obv all those hands are fine. Only the KJ and A8 are even remotely debatable, and I think those are pretty clear calls.

[Kurn]

My bad. HU SNG as opposed to HU at the end of a normal SNG, you're right. At lower blinds, fold equity is minimal so there's no reason to take the risk of ruin to deny him that.

The math behind the idea that it is impossible to make shoving ATC -cEV is only valid at higher blind levels.