A PF raise behind you, in Limit

[MathBabe]

Here's something that Lee Jones doesn't address, and I have to admit, I haven't picked up SSHE yet (little brother gave me a Chapters gift certificate for Christmas, but I haven't gotten there yet to see if they have it.)

In the pre-flop section Jones talks about starting hands for each position, and whether you should raise, call, or fold. He discusses how it's different if you're just calling, or if there's a raise in front of you.

What he doesn't mention, and what my question is, what do you do when there's a raise BEHIND you? This most often occurs when you're in early position, so generally I called with a decent hand, and I figure if I'm in for one bet I might as well be in for two. But with these low-limit games it happens often enough when I'm late position that I need to make sure I'm playing it right. If I'm one before the button, and the button raises, what do I do? Can anyone give me examples of when I should call, and when I should fold? I try to take into account whether the player is loose or tight, but let's assume I have no read yet.

Since I typically play 10-handed .10/.20 Limit, there are usually 4-6 people in the hand. If there is a raise behind me most people will call it, so there will be anything from 6-12SB in the pot by the time we see the flop. That makes me think I'm often getting the correct pot odds to call the second bet.

[PShabi]

You are getting pot odds with that many players in the pot.

If you call one bet to see a flop and it's raised behind you, leaving you to call one more bet, you should always call. I can't think of a situation in LHE where I wouldn't.

[MathBabe]

Excellent, thanks!

[Talking Poker]

Yup.... if you think about it, you're going to have better pot odds on your call the second time around than you did on the first time around.

One obvious (?) exception to this would be if you decided to limp in with a hand and it was then raised AND reraised behind you - now you need a pretty solid hand to continue, especially considering it's likely going to be capped and you're going to have to call another bet.

There is also another exception you might not have thought of, but it's a cool one. Think about this scenario: Two guys limp in front of you. You look down at JTs and decide to make the call as well. The player immediately behind you raises, there are two more callers and both the blinds come in as well. The original two limpers call, and now the action is on you. What do you do?

With SEVEN other people in the pot (extreme example), I believe the right play here is to REraise with your obvious drawing hand. No one is going to fold, and you'll be getting 8 more total bets in the pot for the price of your ONE bet.

Now, two things happen after the flop:

1. If you do happen to flop a monster (full house, nut straight - and there are a LOT of ways to make a nut straight with JT), great. There is a huge pot, and no one is going to go anywhere until at least the turn, so you're likely to scoop a huge pot.

2. If you flop a good draw, or even a not so good draw, you will have PLENTY of pots odds to chase. Say the flop comes down AQ2 rainbow with 1 spade, for example. That's right, all you have is a gutshot (4 outs) and a backdoor flush draw (call it 1.5 outs) for a total of 5-6 outs. But with 24 bets in the pot PREFLOP, you'll have plenty of odds to chase that King or those running spades. Even if one of the EP players bets AND it gets raised in front of you, the pot will still be laying you at least 14:1, so you can easily make the call.

Kind of a cool situation, isn't it?

[MathBabe]

Aha... this is a subtlety that I hadn't thought of. I didn't mention raising, but of course I do with AA-JJ. It hadn't occurred to me to think about drawing hands this way.

Drawing hands love company... this is a case where I can manipulate the pot odds to my favour. Hm. I like it. I'll be on the lookout for this situation in the next couple of days and post a HH when I have it. Thanks!

[Talking Poker]

It doesn't come up often, but I still think it's cool.

Was bit surprised no one else responded to that post...