Facing a regular 3bettor preflop

[Boobie Lover]

You are playing 5/10 NL with $1000 effective stacks. You hold 44 in the CO and open to $40. The button reraises to $120 and the blinds fold. According to some old logic, you should call here for set value. But, is that correct? I don't think so.

Say that the button has a very small reraising range of QQ+, AK. This is the ideal opponent that you are going to face in this scenario. But, even though this player is the ideal opponent,. Every time QQ flops badly or AK doesn't hit the flop, it is rare that you are going to take this opponent's entire stack. Add on the fact that you might flop a set and still lose the hand, and calling here for set value is very thinly +EV or even -EV.

Now instead replace the buttons reraising range to 40% QQ+-AK, 20% 99-JJ AQ-AJ, and 40% other suited connectors & small pairs. If you call with 44 and only continue past the flop if you flop a set in this scenario, there is NO WAY this is anything but -EV. Roughly 7 out of every 8 flops you are going to not hit your set, and this opponent is going to take the pot down with a continuation bet. Then, the lucky 1/8 flops you do hit your set, he isn't going to stack off anywhere near enough for you to make this play profitable since he is going to have some crap pair or complete air a lot of the time.

So, calling with low pairs only for set value is definitely a losing play against someone that 3bets with some regularity preflop. Then, what is a person to do to counter this constant 3bettor? Well, if he is 3betting light preflop,you could 4bet light right back at him. If he knows you know that he 3bets light and you counter 4betting light, then you could conceivably be 5betting for value with a much frequency than what some low limit people may understand. This is why some people may be puzzled when observing high limit games and see AJ vs. 67s all-in preflop for 80k. This is the thought process that happens in these games.

You also could check/raise bluff on the flop against his cbet with some frequency against this regular 3bettor, or you could call if the flop is favorable to you (but this scenario creates difficult situations on the turn). All these things 3betting preflop and countering them is what is making me more frustrated with NLHE cash games, but I suppose the games can't always be golden.

[MAYHEM45]

What are you doing with low pairs to a player in the 40% range then? Break it down into fold, call and 4 bet percentages please.

[Boobie Lover]

Fold most of the time. Ugh, I guess I'll write some other thread about 4betting light, but generally I think it's best to 4bet light with Ax.

[lightfungus]

For the noobs out there, what does "light" mean?

[MAYHEM45]

Without a premium hand.

[Boobie Lover]

Reraising without a stellar hand

[JDMcNugent7]

good thread. i call 3bets way too much but it makes it really hard to play against me, but that doesnt correlate with me winning more $.
I actually think I'm one of the hardest players to play against at any given table of 3/6 6max, but I know I'm not usually the #1 winner at the table yet. Getting the 2 to blend better would be sweet tho.

[drewjax]

Define 3 betting. I was under the impression it meant a 3rd bet; literally bet, raise, raise. I guess this comes from limit thinking. Is this term different when talking NL, ie 3x bet (40x3=120)? Otherwise this is just a bet and a raise, correct. Just want to know so I can follow properly!

[MAYHEM45]

in nl there is the call (1bet) the raise (2bet) and the re-raise (3bet). You never hear the terms 1bet and 2bet though. They dont exist.

[drewjax]

Thats what I thought. So this situation isnt a 3bet, correct?

Open to 40, raise to 120......

[Boobie Lover]

It is my assumption that is 3betting in NL.

[drewjax]

???????

[MAYHEM45]

lol. The open to 40 is the 2bet(raise) the raise (really reraise) to 120 is the 3bet.

(note if it was to 150 or 160 or whatever the number is, it is still a 3bet.)

[drewjax]

OK. So it isnt 3 physical bets, or doesnt have to be. But this is the same as limp, raise, re-raise? Makes sense, kinda.......

[Talking Poker]

Consider the BB to be the first bet if that makes it easier. Calls add 0 bets. Raises add 1.

So opening (to 40 in our example) is the 2nd bet and reraising (to 120 in our example) is the third - tada - three betting.


FWIW, I feel that I can pretty much dominate any table where no one 3 bets light (ie, if they reraise preflop, they have a BIG hand). The tables I have the most trouble with are when there are multiple people who three bet me light. In position, I call quite a bit - probably more than I should - and I HATE calling 3 bets out of position. I probably fold to 3 bets OOP too often and don't 4 bet (light) enough... I just don't seem to have the sones to pull it off very often.

IMO, light 3 betting is probably the biggest difference between the low limit NL cash games and the mid limit ones. Yes, lots of other things change and the players improve in general, but I'm saying it's the difference in 3 betting hand ranges that I think is the single biggest skill difference as you move up - not to mention the hardest one (for me) to counteract.

When I'm the guy doing all the light 3 betting, life is good.... when my opponents start playing back at my raises (and reraises) though, I start to get frustrated.