The average stack.

[Aequitas58]

MTT poker, NLHE.

Lately my success has actually been good playing low stakes MTT poker. In the last three months (?), I final tabled three times, with a 1st and 2nd finish included.

I mainly play tournaments on weekends, but... I might have found a problem with my MTT game that I'd like to address. Hopefully, we can get into a good discussion that could not only benefit me, but benefit others. (Which is another way of asking the thread to go 2-3 replies long.)

I play well as a big stack. I like taking chances and seeing alot of flops. I like being able to make raises and get players off hands. As the big stack, others are showing less aggression to me because I can put them out of the tournament, another perk.

The short stack is also easy to play, IMO. Generally, it's push or fold poker, but I have enough chips to make people think twice about calling. Many times, I'll have no problem pushing AI w/ 63o, because I like the blind stealing opportunity.

My last few "wins" have been either as a big stack from the get-go, or as a short stack on life-support, believe it or not.

My problem: playing as the average stack.

The way I see it, I have less chances to "make moves:" I have to play a little more cautiously pre-flop (as compared to the big stack) but I'm also not playing push-fold poker.

Aeq you idiot, play good hands, play position, and steal off other medium to smaller stacks...

1. Ok, but what happens when you go card dead? I have to be able to get deep in the tournament without the cards because I'm ALWAYS not going to be so lucky as to have a big stack.

2. Stealing off the big stacks (ie: w/out cards to back up the raise) is dangerous because they're calling me...

3. I would love to steal off the other medium to smaller stacks, but sometimes it's all but impossible given the various stacks sitting around me. What do you do when the next 2-3 players to your left are big stacks?

I guess I should revisit Harrington on these issues, but I'd also like to hear it from members who have found success with MTTs.

[eejit101]

i completely agree with ya lou, strange huh.

Playing as the big stack i love it, suits my game completely, aggression all the way.

Low stack is easy poker, luck becomes more of a factor, but if timing is with you, and some nice cards, your fine generally.

Average stack i hate. Early on in a tourney i dont care, but after break 2 if were talking average MTTs, blinds are getting well up there, about 1k/2k, average stacks are about 15x BB ish? I mean id rather try and steal from a low stack that a high stack when im average, because you have them covered, and thats in your favour. But on the other hand, having a big stack they are the people who would rather be raising, not calling raises from smaller stacks.

If the 2 players to your left are big stacks, then hope to get moved is all i can say. You cant do much about it, raise with the shit hands and hope they fold, or entice a ig bet when your good, i dunno.


if you go card dead, ill try a move an orbit, to eep myself level on chips till it passes, this doesnt always work but your being blinded out anyway, so you gotta take a couple risks. And 1 push per orbit isnt gonna be noticed as you buying pots too often.

[JDMcNugent7]

ya harrington covers all this... but stay aggro as a medium stack.
Just cuz there are big stacks behind u doesnt mean they will call. Often times they see ur not so big stack and see u raising, thinking hes not totally desperate, he prob has a decent hand... big stacks fold too.

Don't go crazy stealing blinds early, but when the amount of money u raise to make a steal, is almost equal to the money from blinds and antes, i pretty much steal every chance i get.
Gives me a crazy image so i get paid off big hands, and if it works 1 out of every 2 times or so u end up about even, and usually it will work more than that. like 2 out of 3 times.

[Talking Poker]

Let me get this straight.... If you have an average stack and go card dead (for say 3-4-5 orbits?), you will start pushing in once per orbit (with nothing) and think no one will notice??? Um............................ ok.

I think that's about the worst advice I've read on this forum in a long, long time..... well, since bunny shared her "call and see every flop" strategy with us for 6 max limit.

[Talking Poker]

As for your original question, Lou, you probably won't like this answer, but here it is:

I see playing the big stack and playing the small stack and the exceptions. Those are the times when I have to (choose to) change my basic strategy in a tourney. So for the other times, when I have an average stack, I just play normally.

If your questions is really, "How do you normally play in an MTT?" that's one thing, but I can't look as having an "average stack" as some sort of exception to standard play. That is what standard tourney strategy is designed for.

[bdawg31]

Yeah, one of my many problems as of late is that i find myself fairly consistently playing as an average stack through most of the tourney - then in the mid-to-late rounds i go card dead or miss a couple flops. Then i have to push with a strong-ish hand and i get called and go out about 2/3 through. Or if i get into the money - i usually dont have enough chips to do any serious damage unless i win a run of coin-flippish types of hands.

I remember reading a post/article/something-or-another about trying to build early - but i have to say for whatever reason i am having a tough time forcing myself out of my tight-aggressive-but-probably-too-conservative style in NLHE. Ironically, the few times i have played in O8B, stud, etc - i seem to put myself in the postion of accumulating a lot of chips and going fairly deep or busting out fairly early. Which i think is better than a fairly consistent finish high-up or low-in-the-money finishes i seem to get in NLHE.

one leak or weakness i think i have is not being able to pull the trigger on a move later in the tourney if i am avg stack or slightly lower. Basically like Aeq mentioned - i get anxious putting my tourney life on a play like that. But, maybe at some point i need to trust my read and try the move - maybe in a semi-bluff situation where i still have outs if i am caught. Figure if i finish 40 spots out of the money or 10 out of the money - i am still out of the money. Busting is busting.

I also was thinking about the responses someone got regarding their Sit N Go numbers - where they had too many 'middle of the road' finishes and not enough wins and early bust-outs. I think ALL of my tourneys are like that - Sit N Goes, MTTs, etc - i am middle-heavy so to speak.

I guess i really have nothing substantial to add to this - i am just rambling. Hopefully this can keep the conversation going at least.

[eejit101]

As i said, ill try and keep my stack level to what it is now, tryint o win 1 hand preflop per orbit. I didntmean to say push, if i did thats wrong, as i wont go all in with an average stack once per orbit. However im not talking the huge tourneys you play, im talking $5, $10, $20, buyins, where the players wont be making notes on me i reckon. I could be way out there though.

[Talking Poker]

My bad then. I must have mistaken this statement when you talking about "pushing" for you meaning, you know, "pushing," and not "raising" or "playing" or some other word that doesn't involve you pushing all of your chips into the middle:

[eejit101]

yeah, by bad. I dont push to steal blinds, unless im low as shit

[BlibbityBlabbity]

Since at most times about half of the field is in the "average stack" predicament I can think of a couple of points that stick out:

1) watch the stacks you are playing against. If there is an aggressive stack at the table, don't play without something that you are willing to commit to. Stick to even stacks or smaller to have some leverage when making a play.

2) Focus on reads of players willing to call through a hand with weak cards. Don't try to bluff them and don't bet weak hands on all streets as they will just call you out with what might be a SLIGHTLY better pair.

3) Watch about commiting yourself (by betting too much on the flop) with hands you are not sure you want to see through if you are played back at (non-nut/weak draws, middle pairs, weak kickers, etc). Worst feeling when you push half+ your chips in and get reraised and have just about forced yourself to call with so-so hand only to find you have only a couple outs.

4) since most players are also average stacks don't be so concerned about it unless you are in a hand with a chip leader and watch for players who seem to be overly concerned about their average stack size and bet them off their hands (if they have shown they will fold) when you think they are weak.

Those are a few that come to mind....