Poker player question.

bunny · #1 10-12-07, 11:25 AM

Question: Knowing a player has sat down at a tournament table, not knowing how to play the game, would you as a poker player...explain it to him, or use this to your advantage?

There is a *chat* (which led me to ask this question, in here) that transpired a little while ago, but I will save it for later.

Would rather read your responses first.

Talking Poker · #2 10-12-07, 11:39 AM

Depends what you mean by them "not knowing how to play." Yes, I would certainly explain how the game itself works (flop, turn, river, betting rounds) and what beats what if they don't know that. I would explain how to announce raises, how to avoid string betting and other common errors.

But I wouldn't sit there and explain to them HOW they should be palying certain hands in certain positions, give them reads on the other players, explain aggression, etc, etc...

Honestly, I can't think how you could use the other player's lack of knowledge to your advantage... it's just annoying when people don't know how to play, so by all means, give him a crash course in the basics.

Fildy · #3 10-12-07, 11:40 AM

If he doesn't know how to play then he shouldn't be playing IMHO. With the amount of resources out there to learn the simplicity of the game I would say he should know how to play. That being said, I try to stack him ASAP

Kurn · #4 10-12-07, 11:42 AM

Like TP, I would explain structural things like posting blinds, legal bet/raise sizes, protecting their hands, showdown rules, etc. But it would be limited to those types of issues and only ad hoc, as they came up, and only to answer specific questions.

Talking Poker · #5 10-12-07, 11:48 AM

I disagree. Totally depends on the situation. Examples:

-A guy sits down to play online for the first time, because he saw it on tv and wants to try it out. He most certainly should be allowed to play - any limits he wants - without having to do research first.

-Friendly home game. Someone has never played before but agreees to play so you can be 5 handed instead of 4.

Etc, etc, etc.

I really can't think of anyone that shouldn't be allowed to play poker, ever (assuming it's an "open" game or tourney - not something that requires qualification, of course).

bunny · #6 10-12-07, 12:14 PM

Example is : razz.

Let's say a player sits in plays first hand (2nd and 3rd)and has no clue as to what he's doing. Would you take advantage of that or would you try to explain him the game as quickly as possible?

Sorry, I should have explained what I meant in my OP.

Kurn · #7 10-12-07, 12:17 PM

I'd wait for him to say something like "I had three queens, how come I lost?" to say something.

bunny · #8 10-12-07, 12:21 PM

What if he never chats?

Kurn · #9 10-12-07, 01:23 PM

Then he goes broke in ignorance.

Talking Poker · #10 10-12-07, 01:50 PM

So this is online? And you don't know the guy and he's not slowing the game down?

I certainly wouldn't teach him strategy (like playing low cards) if that's what you are asking.

bunny · #11 10-12-07, 02:20 PM

I guess the player I was having this discussion with...was correct then when he said "I am not a GOOD poker player?"

I frowned upon him (and would frown upon all of you) if that's how you want to play your game. What's it take to explain him the game, and move on to play properly?

I find it ruins the game play for everyone sitting at the table. It does NOT make the game run smoothly since all players are trying their best to take advantage of this guy, therefore I chose to give him a quick explanation so we can play the game as fairly as possible.

I think it's a different story had it been 1 on 1, but since many players are trying to take advantage of this one guy...it truly messes up the game.

bunny · #12 10-12-07, 02:46 PM

Here's the chat:

BlackAdderIV: typical
BlackAdderIV: betcha he had 237
BlackAdderIV: doesn't even know how he won the last hand

Dealer: BlackAdderIV, it's your turn. You have 15 seconds to act
BlackAdderIV: lol...oh what the hell why not
BlackAdderIV: what a donk
BlackAdderIV: learn the game hitmann
Dealer: Bunnyki$$, it's your turn. You have 15 seconds to act
Osario: be cool
BlackAdderIV: go back to play money ya donk

Bunnyki$$: hitmann it's low cards win
BlackAdderIV: he no speaky English
Bunnyki$$: the game is whoever has low cards wins

BlackAdderIV: best hand is 22224
Bunnyki$$: les cartes plus bas gagne hitmann

Bunnyki$$: would have been nicer of you to have explained the game instead of laughing at him, don't you think?

BlackAdderIV: hell no

BlackAdderIV: serves him right for signing up for a tourney he does not know how to play

BlackAdderIV: besides...ps pays donks all the time

Bunnyki$$: there was 2 tournaments one after each other last night, thinking I signed up to Stud ...I ended up in this one instead
Bunnyki$$: I played the first 3 hands as if I was playing Stud then realized on my own I was in Razz, wish someone would have said something to me last night

Dealer: Osario, it's your turn. You have 15 seconds to act

BlackAdderIV: this is a good game...except when there is a donk at the table
Bunnyki$$: but guess there's no being nice in poker, eh?

BlackAdderIV: what do you want to do, restart?

Bunnyki$$: no
BlackAdderIV: give him back chips?
Bunnyki$$: no
BlackAdderIV: well then, what?

Bunnyki$$: simply saying it would have been NICE for you to explain him the game instead of calling him names and trying to mess up the game by raising with silly hands

BlackAdderIV: rules are posted, in all languages
Dealer: BlackAdderIV, it's your turn. You have 15 seconds to act

BlackAdderIV: I do not work for ps, why should I kelp?
Bunnyki$$: once explained ...if he still chooses to not play it that way then you have played fair and you can laugh at him all you want. least it won't slow up the game

BlackAdderIV: I am here to take his money, why give away my advantage?

Bunnyki$$: it's called being nice, you should try it sometime
Bunnyki$$: and you not the only one trying to take advantage of him, so are the other 6 players

Dealer: BlackAdderIV, it's your turn. You have 15 seconds to act

BlackAdderIV: you are not a poker player bunny...try social work, may be more rewarding for you

Bunnyki$$: why? because I'd rather play the game fairly?

BlackAdderIV: no, because a real poker player uses every advantage, including situations like this

BlackAdderIV: let him figure it out, learn from his mistake...he's lucky it's just $3

ps: is he right about this?

2Tone · #13 10-12-07, 02:54 PM

BlackAdderIV deserves a KITN for tapping the glass. No need to explain the rules, but no need to insult the donator. You don't specify the limits, but given that it was only $3, it might well be that the guy was simply experimenting with a new game, and learning as he goes.

bunny · #14 10-12-07, 03:03 PM

add on: Wouldn't it be better for him to play at a regular table, if he wanted to learn a new game?

I usually don't pay much attention to the chat, but when I saw the slow playing action and the raising with silly cards...I had had it.

It's one thing if no one says anything, but when the fool starts talking and others start thinking, it annoys me and clearly messes up the game for all of us.

He might have ended up in the wrong tournament,

*OFF TOPIC* : such as I did last night. I played 3 hands, before realizing I was in the wrong tourney.

After playing a good two hours and getting my stack to a fairly nice size, I sat out. (something I detest when others do, but I have to wake up early in the a.m. and it was way past my bedtime

)

Finished in 8th place. hehe

Zybomb · #15 10-12-07, 03:15 PM

u do realize bunny that for every time you win something (tournament a cash game pot) someone else loses right?

Life is tough - shit happens - wear a helmet etc

Hypothetical: If someone challenged you to a game of pool/darts/bowling/basketball (whatever) for money and you knew that you were better than your opponent and had a massive advantage would you still take the bet?

bunny · #16 10-12-07, 03:31 PM

If it were a one on one game, yes I would take the challenge.

If it were amongst a group of people who were all going after the *tard* then no. It would mess up the game for me.

Why can't anyone see it like I do?

The game was being disrupted by the other players not playing it correctly, since they were all trying to take advantage of this one guy.

Invigilator · #17 10-12-07, 04:30 PM

I am a fundamentally compassionate person, but I am not going to tune this guy up.

If he is playing for money online, then he can check out the rules online.

If he says "why didn't my Queens win?", I might say " it's a low card game", but that's it, if that.*

Exception: If I am playing a mixed game, I won't even go that far.

If you have the braincells to get to the point to play for money online, then you have the braincells to look up the rules.

This whole issue reminded me of another conversation I had with my cousin once. Away from the table, I am going to try to convince a friend that can't afford to play with his money to not play. When I sit down though, I have to realize and be willing to accept that I might be winning someone's tuition, grocery money, rent, etc.

Poker is a pyramid scheme. People at the bottom lose so people at the top can win. It's a firendly, predatory game. And let me tell you the view from the top of the pyramid is nice.

Talking Poker · #18 10-12-07, 04:42 PM

This is my biggest problem with your logic. How is them adapting their games to take advantage of the donator NOT correct? I think NOT changing how you are playing when someone is handing out free chips is NOT correct.

Note that this is completely independent of if you should be nice and give him free lessons during the tourney or not (which is an ethics question of it's own - is THAT fair to the other players in the tourney? What about one player per hand?).

I dunno... I guess I see it as playing the same starting hands in a HU game as you would at a full table, because "that's correct." Well, no, it's not. As game conditions change, "correct" play changes too.

The only think I think was out of line here was the guy making fun of the donk... that's just stupid, and completely -EV. Then again, so are the free lessons you apparently wanted to give him. I also don't see why you were "defending" a guy who didn't see fit to defend himself. If he didn't say anything, maybe it's because he had to go and he was trying to bust out on purpose. Who knows? Nunya-bidnezz.

I also don't understand how someone can sign up for a Razz tourney and think it's 7 card stud. I mean, not noticing when the rounds change in HORSE is on thing, but that would be like me signing up for a Hold Em tourney only to find out it's HORSE. I don't see how that's possible. I mean, don't you read the name of the game before you click the register button?

2Tone · #19 10-12-07, 05:19 PM

I don't want this to be a pick on Bunny exercise, but adapting your play based on the table dynamics is crucial. This is the concept behind raising to isolate against an overly loose player, or changing gears in a very tight game. Is not only correct, it is essential.

Wes · #20 10-12-07, 05:28 PM

Teaching people whom you don't even know how to play is not only bad etiquette but incredibly retarded.

Kurn · #21 10-12-07, 06:40 PM

I've said this many times before, but here goes again. Compassion may well have a place in our lives, but the poker table is not one of them.

Kurn · #22 10-12-07, 06:42 PM

Not only that, but the essence of poker is taking "unfair" advantage of the less skilled.

bunny · #23 10-12-07, 07:11 PM

Good points, thank you.

I'm done being nice now, so beware!

I will be one ugly b, from now on.

bunny · #24 10-12-07, 08:34 PM

I give to you the *new me*?

Talking Poker · #25 10-13-07, 12:00 AM

I can't believe Stars let you change your avatar AGAIN. What is this - like number 12?