read PT numbers

[Invigilator]

Still learning to understand PT...

If you just had the VPIP and PFR on the following players (assume a sample of 700-1000 hands), what would you be able to say about them?

VPIP --------------PFR
25.0 --------------- 9.4
47.2 -----------------2.8
14.0 ----------------4.7

[Talking Poker]

Is this for 6 max or full ring? I can get more specific if I know the answer to that, but generally speaking:

[Invigilator]

full ring

[eejit101]

weeeee, unless player 2 is me, stack him to fuck every time

[Invigilator]

I had a hell of a time against this dude the other night. I can identify the more extreme ends of the number ranges, but what do you think when you see this on a hand sample of about 150?

VPIP 28
PFR 12
FA 2.52
TA 1.70
RA 2.80

Thank the maker that buddy overplayed an overpair when I floped top set. Until that death blow, he was in the way of almost everything I tried to do.

[stormswa]

he is a lag, just re-raise him with your good hand's preflop. Reraise him preflop with hand like AQ and AJ and other things you normally dont raise with. Re-raise him on your good draws or pairs, most of your re-raise he will fold to. Don't let him draw cheap, make him pay. Be careful of low coordinated boards, 5 9 2 is a safe board except against a lag, that is right in their neiborhood.

also dont always assume he has a hand when he C-bets.

[Invigilator]

Timing was bad then. Everytime I had something, he had something better.

[Talking Poker]

First, I almost entirely disagree with everything Brian said. He's describing how to play against... well.... not this guy.

This guy is basically a good player, but a little bit on the passive side.

Wait - Is this full ring again? I keep forgetting that you don't play 6 max. OK, forget that - in full ring, this guy is too loose. But I still disagree with almost everything Brian wrote.

[stormswa]

why? against a very loose aggressive player you are not going to tighten up and play back at them when you have a hand? so what do you do then just fold and avoid them constantly? its basic that you should always play the opposite of the way the other guy plays. Unless im misreading the numbers but he looks pretty loose aggressive to me. Through only 150 hands those stats are basic loose aggressive numbers.


i mean if im totally off base here please explain why?

[Invigilator]

Oh Yeah, sorry. This is full ring. I tried some 6 max last week and got my head handed to me. I will try again soon.

Does the PFR indicate anything about loosseness, or does that just come from VPIP?

[stormswa]

if someone is raising alot preflop then that means they dont have to have a good hand all the time, or could mean they are just hitting a good run of cards.

alot also depends on what position they are raising it in, you really cant go by just one numer you need to combine the numbers.

if someone NEVER raises preflop then they raise UTG, say they got like a 1 - 1.5 PFR then they raise UTG you can say they most likley have a pretty strong hand. If someone raises from button and they have a high PFR then they might not be that strong. Like everything in poker alot depends on position.

[stormswa]

like I said you need to add numbers together to get a idea.


VP$IP= 31.12
PFR = 15.0

that is what we call loose aggressive, as you see they are running alot of hands and raising alot pre-flop so see the vpip is loose and the pfr shows aggressive. Now that vpip is very very high, that is not a good LAG player but he still is loose aggressive.


vp$ip= 12.2
PFR = 1.0


that is what we call a nit, as you see he dosent enter that many pots and he never raises pre-flop, also his numbers per street should be low also but he could be tight preflop and loose after flop.

vpip= 12.2
PFR= 15.3

that is a TAG player tight aggressive, he is very choosy on hands but plays them aggressive.


again this is just preflop and after the flop the numbers could be totally different. He might be a total nit preflop but then totally change after the flop and become a maniac. You really just cant give us one number and expect us to analize some random player.


as for the example above when you gave us per street number he is a total lag player, no matter what TP says. And like I said you should play the opposite of the way your opponent plays. So you tighten up. Through only 150 hands we can get a idea of his play style but then again he might just be on a rush. You tighten up and play your hands aggressively but I also would like to see you playing back at him once and awhile with hands like AQ suited and stuff because that alot of time will be well ahead of his range. So against him id say selective aggression is the key.

[Invigilator]

Okay. Thanks though for what you gave me. Given that the PT numbers are dependent on each other and on position, there are a lot of relational subtleties that I am trying to understand.

[Invigilator]

The help I have been getting lately has been great. I am going to try and lay of the questions a bit for a week or two and try to absorb and apply the principles you guys have got me thinking about. (not going away though). I will post and comment and even show you the good and bad of the hands I play, but I think I need some time to try to make these ideas a practical reality in my game.

I am going to over lap this with my preparations for the WCOOF. This is going to be my first attempts to satty into a larger tournament, and the $5 and $10 events will be the biggest events I have ever played. In my little world, I am getting pretty excited about it.

cue cool training montage music (like in Rocky or the Karate Kid)...

[Talking Poker]

I don't have time right now to get too deep into this (maybe later), but I feel that I NEED to warn you to take the things "Raistlin" is saying with a grain of salt. He's speaking very matter of factly, saying: "This means this and that means that, so therefore you need to do this." And not only is it not that simple, but that's just not right... as evidenced by him being a losing player still after 3+ years or however long it's been. I mean, for the TAG example he gave above, those numbers aren't even possible. GL raising 15 hands out of 100 while only playing 12 out of 100 - that's a neat trick right there.

Also, classifying a guy who is limping in more than he is raising preflop as aggressive, well, that's just not right. And the per street numbers are shaky at best after 150 hands, but 1-2 certainly isn't off the charts crazy aggressive. I only play 6 max, but my PT aggressions number on the flop is > 5. My total for all streets is > 4.

As for his advice of backing off against Mr. 28/12 when the flop comes 952 - wow. I really couldn't disagree with this more.

I'm not trying to attack Brian here or say that he's completely wrong or anything like that... I just see him giving some bad advice and I don't want you to put too much value into it. I mean, if any given losing player teaches you to play exactly like them - guess what????

OK, I spent more time on that than I expected. Gotta go........

[Invigilator]

Yikes!

I don't want to start a fight between you two.

Remember, I'm Mr. peace and love.

"I'd like to teach the world to sing, in perfect harmony. I'd like to buy the world a [product placement] and keep it company. La la la la la......... la la la la la......."

Pokerwise, understanding that this person is still LAG, but derserving of some close attention is usefull. I just wanted to be sure that I was not misreading him, since I had a hard time coming out on top until I hit that top set.

[stormswa]

trust me you are not "starting" anything between us.

I may be a losing player but its not for the reasons you suggest, its not because I don't understand the game or what I'm doing. Its because unlike you I don't try to build a bankroll, I deposit money and if I lose it oh well. Yes I deposit $500 and play 2/4 NL because I don't have a running bankroll. If I want to play a game I deposit and play it. Now with the new U.S. laws I have come to realization that I can not do that as easy anymore so I have decided to try to build this time around. My losing has never been because I play bad its because of bankroll management, if you want advice on bankroll management I would not make a single post because I don't bankroll manage. BUT I have never had a problem at the tables, I just like to deposit enough to play the game I want. Remember not everyone is working on building bankrolls. here I will give you a little insight in what a "losing" player has done last 3 years. I would make a small deposit of $100 or so and go play the game I want to play If I make some money at that game I would move up and if I lost it I would only lose $100 that I invested, yes I might lose 1k total but my initial investment was only $100. I would do this over and over because I was playing for enjoyment value only. It got to the point where it kinda aggravated me but I asked myself why am I playing poker, do I want to deal with the stress of trying to grind it up or am I just playing for fun. My answer to that was I was just playing for fun and the little money I lost for entertainment was worth it. Like I said things have changed while I was away from the forum and my feeling for the game has changed. I took some time off poker and now I have a new outlook on it and I actually do want to grind it up now.

when I make this $500 deposit next week I don't plan on ever depositing again, I have been datamining .10/.25 for about a month now (the time I have been on break) and I plan on coming back ready to grind it up. I have even decided not to play more then 2 tables so I can totally concentrate on my game. You said a month or so ago at bodog that I'm better then you remembered, the truth is you took my thoughtless posts as how I play, and that is just not true. This forum has helped my game alot and even though I used to act like I ignored that advice I really didnt, well the bankroll managment advice I did ignore. I dont in any way concider myself a great player but I do feel like im a little above average player and can beat up to 1/2. I plan on having a strict 20x buy in rule to play a certain level now. Since im kinda starting over as of next week I'm wiping the slate clean including my pokertracker database. I have the skills and the knowledge to do this I just have to apply them and avoid tilting and moving up where my bankroll can not handle.

as for Pokerace Hud numbers being easy, hell no like I said a lot of things are dependent. All my examples were just generic examples, like you I had something to do tonight and didnt have time to go into realistic numbers so gave basic one that would show a point. Yes a board like 942 or whatever I said is very likely to hit a Lag player, very likely, I'm not saying check it but if you get re-raise then it is very very very likely that lag could of made 2 pair raising with something like 4-2 and you should be able to put him on that range of hands. Maybe I could of explained it better, you love to take what I say and over analyze it and that's cool but give me a break. I will take more time on my posts though so I dont seem like im giving bad advice.

I can adjust to players playing styles a lot, if I don't explain something totally on here you get the idea that I'm giving bad advice. It's the correct advice I just don't take the time needed to explain my points which I admit is totally my fault and something I need to work on more. I really need to work on strategic posts a lot better and take the time to make sure I'm making my point more clearly.


also his opponents numbers are going to be alot higher then yours becuase he isnt playing high limits. Remember he is playing low limits so aggression numbers per street are about 4 ALOT, like you said your numbers are less then 4 but the average low limit players are greater then 4 alot. I Just looked at one of my datamining tables and the numbers are great then 6, of course at like 3/6 they are going to be alot tighter. You need to adjust to the level you are playing, yes at low limits players will often limp and then go crazy on later streets, it is really not uncommon at lower limits. Limp/bet/bet/bet happens alot more then you would think, remember these players are not great which is why they are playing such low limits. Hell i just opened a table with dude with 300+ hands with 0.00 pfr and like a high as hell per street aggression, that is why i dont use total aggression at the levels I will be playing because I want to know where he is aggressive. I tag them as loose/tight/aggressive.

[PunkyChikn]

Sorry if I missed something here (and of course not to interrupt), but does Raistlin = BrianSWA?

[Invigilator]

not to speak for the man, but yep!

[Talking Poker]

Ugh. Can someone please translate/summarize that for me? Someone.... anyone....

OK, never mind - I skimmed it. After the "blah blah blah blah blah" 90% of it (again, I'm not trying to be a dick, but Brian, we've been through this same thing with you time after time after time after time where you go from taking poker seriously to playing like an idiot and tilting off your entire roll to never playing again to playing but just for fun to taking poker seriously to (continue loop indefinitely))... Anyway, after all that, I noticed you actually got back on topic in the last paragraph.

I just want to make sure... You do realize that
> = greater then and not less then, right?

Also, you do realize that someone with an aggression factor of 2 (for example) is less aggressive than someone with an aggression of 4.5, right?

Cause, what you are saying seems to imply otherwise. I mean, for you to classify someone with a 2 AF as aggressive when you say yourself that the average player is greater than a 4... well, that doesn't really make sense. At all.

But whatever... I was only posting in this thread out of concern for Invigilator. And like you do at every opportunity you get, you've turned it into a thread about you... and honestly (again, not trying to be mean here, just stating a fact), I'm not really interested.

That said, if you really do decide to take poker seriously and play well and win gazillions of dollars, PLEASE, by all means, do it. I'll be the first to congratulate you when you do. But along the way, you need to cut those of us who know you best a little bit of slack... I mean, we've been down this road (numerous times) before, so it's only natural for us to expect the same results.

[stormswa]

yes sir I did know that 4.5 is higher then 2 all I was trying to say was at lower stakes players are more aggressive. Not because they are better but because they are horrible players that push on 2nd,3rd and no pairs. anyway this is getting old lets move on.

[Talking Poker]

So tell me again how this guy is a LAG by your definition then, when he's less than half as aggressive as the average player at these stakes (by your definition) and is limping/cold calling more pots preflop than he's raising?

Rereading what you wrote (when you misquoted me as being LESS aggressive than I was saying I am), I think you might be mixing up "loose" with "aggressive."

[stormswa]

I really wanted to just move on you know after you telling me I was a loosing player and shouldn't give advice but don't take it personal and all of course.

preflop he is loose but I guess he isnt as aggressive as I 1st stated, in 10max that high of a vpip is pretty loose, so guess he is loose/tight or loose/calling station or whatever you want to tag him as.

so against a player like this I would re-raise alot in position and value bet him on my good hands. If I'm wrong then I guess I have been reading the numbers wrong for last 2 years or so, if I'm soo far off please enlighten me. Instead of just saying I'm wrong and don't listen to me how about making a post that actually explains what you take from the numbers instead of baiting me in attempt to make me look stupid. Please enlighten us all sir. Mark this isnt a attack on you I just dont see you actully expalining what the numbers mean to you after like what 15+ posts in the thread. Telling me how horrible my advice is kinda has no point when you dont give the good advice to go along with it.

[Talking Poker]

If you want to move on, move on... I was simply trying to bring us back on topic and explain why I didn't agree with your advice - let alone how you were classifying this guy.

I mean, what the hell is loose/tight? Is that like being passive/aggressive or an intelligent moron or a female man or .
LOL... Sorry Brian, but you're all kinds of mixed up here.

Loose <> (does not equal) Aggressive.
Tight <> Passive.

You need to understand that right now. These are different concepts. When combined, you have the following 4 player types:

Loose/Aggressive (LAG - lots of flops, lots of raising... CAN be a winning style if played properly, but is usually a loser with huge variance)
Loose/Passive (Big loser - plays too many hands, calls down a lot)
Tight/Aggressive (Winning player - this is what you should strive for)
Tight/Passive (Nit - CAN be a winner, especially against bad opponents, but good opponents will tear this guy apart)

And that's it. Note that there is no Loose/Tight on the list.

As for me enlightening you, I guess I thought I wrote enough that it was obvious where I thought you were wrong, but if you want me to spell it out for you like I would someone that has never played poker before, I suppose I can...

Exhibit A - Player In Question:
VPIP 28
PFR 12
Total Postflop Aggression - 2ish

Exhibit B - Aggression of the "average" player at these stakes, according to you:
Total Postflop Aggression > 4 (> means GREATER than, btw)

Now, I thought pretty much anyone who can count (let alone anyone who knows anything about poker) would realize that 4 > 2 (4 is greater than 2) and would be able to deduce that the player in Exhibit A is therefore LESS AGGRESSIVE then the average player in Exhibit B. So I was wondering why you classified him as a LAG (Loose Aggressive). Taking it one step farther, he's putting money into 28% of the pots, but only raising 12%, meaning he's not raising 16% (more than half the time he's putting money in the pot). 16 is greater than (>) 12, so it's not like he crazy aggressive preflop either.

So, for you to look at this guy and compare him to the average player (again, we are going with your definition, since I don't play full ring OR these stakes) and label him as aggressive... I don't get that. I also didn't get how you would:

Wait... Why aren't you raising with hands like AQ preflop already??? You also said this guy is aggressive and we are supposed to play the opposite, but then you are advocating playing him more aggresively (raising AQ, for example) than you normally would (limping AQ, for example).

In other words, it just didn't make sense to me. I agreed with pieces of what you were saying, but not for the reasons you were saying them, and there were so many inconsistencies in what you wrote, I didn't even know where to start - hence my general comment about your post.

I really hope that's enough detail for you. If not, hopefully someone else will chime in, because as much as I've love to be your private poker tutor/math teacher... no wait... I wouldn't.

Feel enlightened yet?

[stormswa]

actually yes and I think that answered the original question very well, I actually got the numbers mixed up in my head and posted before really looking at the number deeply enough and just well made incorrect post.

If I could rep you for this post I would because it answered the original posters question very well, I gave the best answer to my knowledge but I admit I totally botched the numbers up. thanks for in depth post.