Small Pairs

[Invigilator]

mmmm mmmm barf. I have been having trouble with small pairs lately. I want to see further than the "set or fold" mentality.

What are your thoughts on how to play these?

subquestion: How big a pair do you still play like a small pair?

[Robbr25]

My
Raise if first in.
Call if limper is solid and play for set value.
Fold unless pot odds are good to play for set value.

[Talking Poker]

I think this advice is way too general.

Tourney? Cash? Full ring? 6 max? Heds Up? Stack Sizes vs. blinds and vs. each other? Position? Read on opponent(s)? Your table image?

You get the idea. And that's just preflop. After that, how about: Flop texture/read on opponent(s)/pot size/stack sizes/position/image/preflop action/etc/etc/etc.

In summary: "It depends."

That said.... given the (lack of?) information provided in the OP, I'd say try to see cheap flops and stick with the "no set no bet" mentality.

[Robbr25]

Good points TP.
My comments are meant for full ring.
One thing I forgot to mention is who is behind you to act.
If you give some scenarios as TP said, we can better answer your question.

[Zybomb]

Cash games

In 6 max I'll usually open if first in with any pair. If there are limpers, I'll mix it up, but I prefer raising to calling. I'll call a standard raise with any pair assuming both of us are normal stacked or deeper. I'll often reraise from the blinds with any pair against a loose opener and occasionally in position as well

Full ring I'll limp from early positions and call any standard raise, especially multiway. In MP and LP with limpers already in I'll mix in raises and calls slightly favoring calls. Folded around to me in LP I'll open mostly. Raised and Im in LP I'll call

Post Flop: A lot depends on 1) Flop texture and 2) My opponent, so it's difficult to say. I certainly dont play exclusively a no set no bet mentality, but unless you are comfortable playing post flop, it's not a bad idea (although passive) to do so.

Tournaments

Depends on stack size and opponents stack size. In cash games I'll rarely ever fold any pair to a standard raise (or for a limp). In tournaments I'll chuck tiny pairs from EP sometimes, fold pairs to raises sometimes and reraise with pairs sometimes. Alot depends on my opponents, my stack, their stack, the blinds, etc so it's too difficult to discuss

[Invigilator]

Yeah, I tend to do that "way too general a question" thing. There are always so many variables that I never know how to ask the "whole" question. I guess a better quesiton would have been...

What factors (post flop) would bring you to play a small pair...

a) more aggressively if you missed the set on the flop? (ie small pair is now an over pair to the board)

b) less aggresively if you hit the set on the flop? (3 of a suit on the board, on the flop)

[Kurn]

One more point. When calling a raise with a small pair, ask yourself this:

"How often when I flop a set will I stack my opponent/opponents?"

If X = opponent's stack size, Y = percentage of time you stack opponent, and Z = the amount you must call.

Only call if X*Y > 8Z

Just a little math to brighten your day.

[Invigilator]

Interesting. Where did this come from? Also, how do estimate Y?

[Zybomb]

It's basic math.

If X= Opponents Stack (we'll say $1000)

Y= % of time we'll stack him (we'll estimate this by 1) his likely holdings and 2) how he'll react with them. For example if you know your opponent ONLY raises with large pairs and will put his entire stack in with an overpair each time, (extreme example) this would be 100%. More reasonably, let's say 25% for this example

and Z= the amount we must call (i.e his preflop raise)

We take X (1000) times Y (25% = 250 and that must be greater than 8*Z. We get 8 because we will flop a set roughly 1 in 8 times (we will hit a set one out of 5 times yes, but that assumes we will see the turn and river as well)

So say the blinds are $5/$10 and his raise is to $40 we'd take $40*8 and get $320. Assuming our stack % of 25% is accurate then we should fold this hand bc it is -EV (we win $250 when we hit a set ... yes i realize we win 1000 if we stack our opponent, but we only do so 25% of the time so hitting a set has an EV of 250) Yet we need to call $40 8 times (320). Is the % 25% always? Of course not. It could be as low as 5% (complete rock) or as high as 100% (extreme example given above)

Of course this is basic. I would still call with my pair bc this formula doesnt take into consideration

1) other players (and thus more $) in the pot
2) the possibility of being paid off our villains entire stack plus additional money from other players
3) the times we win the pot without hitting a set

Hope this explains a little bit

[Invigilator]

Thanks. Yes it does. I am laughing at the idea of trying to apply this on the fly the first number of times that I try it.

[Talking Poker]

A simpler way of determining almost the same thing would be to guestimate how many chips you think you can extract from your opponent - on average - if you flop your set. Sometimes you'll stack him, sometimes you'll get 0... but on AVERAGE, do you think you can get 8 times the amount you need to put in the pot right now in order to see a flop? If so, go for it.

Also, for simplicity sake, we have all been ignoring reverse implied odds too, but keep in mind that happens. Just because you flop a set doesn't mean you're going to win the hand.