morality question

[melioris]

I am a pretty successful low stakes player. Instead of allowing my bankroll to grow and moving up levels, I usually pull my winnings out in $500-$1000 increments and spurge on some crap that we would never buy if it wasn’t funny-money. (Usually we get a piece of art or something, but the latest purchase was this and a wireless network hookup for it-music in the kitchen is a must- . So I am continuously a $25NL or $50NL player, which maybe the root of my problems.

Every few months I get thinking about the morality of what I am doing. What are all your opinions about the morality of poker? I really struggle with this question. I question the morality of poker because a winning player exploits the mistakes and human weakness in losing players. Without mercy. In this regard, poker can be thought of as a highly evolved form of capitalism. But it is right to be continuously exploiting the human weakness for monetary gain? Sure, some people gamble because they like the thrill, but there are people with gambling problems and people that really can’t afford to be gambling online, and I usually happily take their money. But I kind of feel bad about it. (I don’t want this to turn into some red state/blue state mindless thread, but to answer the question that I will be asked, yes, I do believe that capitalism is a seriously morally flawed economic system. Take any upper-level economic theory class (or read any serious economic study) and you will find that very few argue the moral virtues of capitalism. Instead it is argued, maybe rightly, that morality and economics should be discussed separately.)

My family is moving this summer to Milwaukee. I went out this week to be present at the inspection of the house we are buying. It was awesome to be free of my wife and kids for two days (all those married with young kids know what I mean). I went to the casino in Milwaukee and it totally bummed me out. The card room was full of people that I didn’t want to gamble with. I sat down at a $2/$4 limit table (getting raped by the VIP) and got totally depressed in 2 hours. I left up a little, but completely discontented by what happened. Old people and people that couldn’t afford to be gambling (based on information revealed during conversations) just making stupid plays with crap cards. When I got back to my hotel room I pulled out my money online and figured I’d take a couple of month away from poker to figure out what I think about it.

I respect the poker opinion a lot of the people on the forum and I am interested if anyone else thinks about these issues of poker.

[thrash1294]

I feel no pity for gamblers

I like you stay within the same limits and slurge on the winnings on my family.
I have bought a jumpy castle for my girls A a swingset. and A trip to disney world this april for my family.I would like to thank All the degenerate gamblers
for their contributions.

[redbank09]

i thought every corporation in the world exploits the weakness of humans. so i dont believe there is anything wrong with the people who can earn money on here and im the one donating all my money to the good players.

[Boobie Lover]

I don't hold some morally superior attitude because I take money from losing players.

People that cannot afford to "gamble" are mindless morons who will most likely lose their money in some other form (other gambling games, lotteries, some scam, late night infomercials). Why let some other person have their money when I can easily have it?

Old people, why should I care if they lose their money? So the next of kin doesn't have that precious $500 from the death of this old geezer? I'll take that money, thank you very much.

[Nikita]

I personally have no issues with the morality of poker. I think of it as a game of skill and strategy. If I can out think my opponent, I win.

You talk about exploiting other players weakness, but you do that in any game as well as in sports. Are these things immoral? Or is it because there is money involved? If it's immoral only because of the money, then don't play for money. Of course, if it's for the money, then professional sports should be considered immoral, as athletes compete for money (and then there is the betting on the outcomes of games as well).

As for people playing when they shouldn't, well, people do stupid things all the time. Are they all immoral? We really can't spend our lives trying to prevent others from doing stupid things. We need to behave how we feel it is the right way to behave.

Anyway, my long drawn out point is, that if you think something is immoral, you shouldn't do it. Especially since morality is such a grey issue. Everyone has different opinions on what they consider to be immoral.

[Robbie Robb]

I agree with pretty much everything that everyone above me has said. I'd also like to add that it is VERY unfortunate that some people will become so addicted to the game that they throw away their money week after week with no regard for anything else that may be happening in their lives (or perhaps BECAUSE of what else may be happening in their lives). Unfortunately, one person deciding not to play is not going to make this problem better. Nothing can help those people until those people realize that they need help and actively seek it out. (I can think of one person that frequents these boards that I would say falls under this category and I REALLY REALLY hope that person realizes their problem and gets help)

So I guess what my point boils down to is this: If you only played against people that were in a similar financial situation (or better) as yourself, would you be encountering the same moral dilemma? Or is it only because a great number of the fis...err...people you're winning money from are just too stupid to keep their money? Would you feel poorly about taking money from someone at the table that was extremely wealthy but couldn't play poker if their life depended on it?

What you say is very true - it is sometimes very saddening to go into a casino and you see these people sitting there, hour after hour, dropping quarters into the slots, bellied up to the blackjack table, waiting for a $1/$2 seat open up, and you KNOW that they shouldn't be there. Maybe that's one of the attractions of the internet - everyone is faceless. The guy next to you that is donkey-ing off his chips as fast as he can could be worth millions or he could be playing with his daughter's diaper money. You don't know.

Like Nikki said, if you feel that it's immoral that you absolutely shouldn't do it. That said, there's always going to be someone willing to take a bet, or sit down and deal a hand or two. Why shouldn't it be you?

This is one of those subjects that I could ramble on for ages but I think I'll wrap it up here. I think it's pretty clear where I stand on the issue. It's not as if you are ACTIVELY going out to take advantage of those that shouldn't be playing in the first place (for financial reasons - the ones that shouldn't be playing because they're too stupid, well, they're fair game)

[jillaj]

Playing at the limits that you do, I doubt you are taking to many of the compulsive gamblers money. You may get the last of what they had, but if they are that compulsive, they are normally playing higher stakes trying to get that big hit.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread most businesses take advantage of their customers. Do you think the drunk at the bar can afford to keep blowing money on his alcohol? A large portion of eating establishments serve alcohol on their premises. You think the servers and cooks and executives feel bad cause they may be preying on someone's weakness or "sickness"? You think Puff Daddy, Jay-Z or Micheal Jordan feel bad about taking money from urban America for clothes and shoes that most would be wiser to save or spend on a neccassity rather than a comfort item? Poker is a business too.

People blow money on things they don't need but want. It happens. The concern I have about taking people's money is their children. However, If they are gonna blow money needed for them on poker then they are gonna blow it somewhere else.

[Talking Poker]

What a great thread. +Rep.

As I was reading the first post, all sorts of responses came to mind, but I must say, nearly all of them have been addressed by other people already. Great post, excellent replies!

I'm in pretty much the same boat as everyone else who has replied to this thread so far. But I'll take it one step farther...

Rather than giving up poker because you feel it may be immoral, why not donate a portion of your winnings to charity? You don't need to donate 100%, of course, but even if you did 10% or 20% of each of your cashouts (50% if you must), then your poker playing would be DIRECTLY be a positive thing. You'd be taking money from people who many or may not be able to afford to lose it (you have no way of knowing this), but you'd be giving (some of) it to people who DO need it. Pick your favorite charity or church or local homless shelter, whatever.

[melioris]

Ok, thanks for all the replies everyone. Kind of felt dorkish posting about these thoughts and I wasn’t sure how they would go over. I should have known that you all kick ass and would be cool… or we are all dorks. I prefer the former. And I hope that I didn’t come across as a condescending morally superior son-of-a-bitch. I hate assholes like that. At the end of the day, I figure that we are all trying to be the best person that each of us can be (whatever that means) and often for me that means thinking about if pursuing my poker interests in the best use of my time.

The sports analogy doesn’t work for many reasons. The two most obvious are that the athletes on the losing team still get paid and every sport (including boxing, ultimate fighting, etc) have built in rules to protect those that participate.

Maybe I shouldn’t have mentioned the whole capitalism bit. I brought it up in an attempt to head off a discussion that wasn’t germane to what I was trying to say. But I failed to make myself clear, sorry. What I really wanted to say was, yes, in many regards poker can be thought of an almost pure form of capitalism. But that isn’t an argument that concerns itself with whether it is morally correct.

The charity thing is a good idea, one that I already pursue. And I recommend others to as well. But it still doesn’t get to the issue. So far I can sum the arguments that poker is morally neutral as extensions of the concept of free will. I wonder if there is any other, possibly more nuanced, reason?

[ashmc2]

Morality is usually associated with some faith-based dilemma. You alway seem to be a sympathetic ear around here to most threads. You always bring in the responses aimed towards family wellness and gambling addiction causes and/or treatment. Your like Poker's PEDA or some shit. You make me want to hug a tree or more like needing to hug my kids every time I touch a deck of cards. There is nothing wrong with this, as I like having your Dr. Phil ass around Mel. So when I bring up a topic around here you can coax me into pulling some money from my bankroll and buying my wife something nice.

Poker isn't inherently good or evil. Poker is what you make of it. I make the decisions I feel are right in my life. You can't save the world, you can barely save yourself. I try to do what's right by my family, my friends, and myself and everything else falls into place. Does this mean that I take advantage of everyone I interact with. If you what to get all philosophical, then maybe yes is the answer. My dog loves me, wags his tail, fetches, ands is all around companionable. Does he do this because he actually loves me or some sick symbiotic need for me to nurture him and keep him alive. I would say love. You?

Your morality problem with poker doesn't seem to stem from the competitive nature of poker but more to do with you personally taking money from the people that rightly shouldn't be playing, due to not mentally or monetarily have the necessary requirements to play.

Remedies - get thicker skin and stop sympathizing with everyones plight, play online, and don't be fooled by appearances.

1 - Stop worrying about everyone else. Your there to either make money or have fun. Decide which and stop feeling bad about it. Your personally or morally doing nothing wrong. Your not cheating. They are taking the food from their own mouths. You are just playing your game. That's it Mel.

2 - Online you can't look at someone and empathize with them or their problems as easily. They are just a chip and a chair online. This is rather impersonal, and that is the way you appear to need it.

3 - Don't be so quick to believe what you see or hear at the casino. Poker is about disillusion. What you see is quite often the opposite of reality in poker. Just think tells - strong/weak - weak/strong. People tell you sob stories to get you off guard. People talk tough to intimidate you . You wouldn't believe the rounders that play for a living which show up looking like a fish or in poor clothing to throw you off. When I go to the casino you don't think I show up in poker regalia, (Poker Stars shirts and hats.) No I show up in my "White Men Can't Jump Gear," so they think who's this chump - probably just got done watching WSOP on ESPN and figured he'd bring me money. They're there for one reason and that's to take your money. It's a game - play it better than they do.

Like I said before, I like your posts and how you empathize with everyone, just don't try to make us feel bad about something we like to do.
All my money online is all earnings, having long ago taken my starter moneys off. I don't want to take money off and buy my wife flowers, that's what my paycheck is for. This is My pastime and I want to see just how far this bankroll can swell. And of course I have some illusions of grandeur, (rounding, WSOP, slapping Helmuth around and making him say Uncle.) Those are my pipe dreams, which I hold dear, so don't bring me down with questions of morality. 'Cause, If playin' poker's wrong - I don't want to be right.

[ashmc2]

What exactly are you trying to say about urban america?

Don't make me break out the "R" word.

[jillaj]

I am saying they don't have the income that one would normally have when spending a significant amount of money clothing or anything else that does not hold it's value.

You can break it out if you like.

[ashmc2]

I was just pointing out how it sounded. It could be construed as insensitive.
I could care less. Again just jokin'.

[jaeh00d]

that is a very very good idea. I really like that, and would look to do that somewhere in the future. I donate and write checks to the homeless voice all of the time. at times i have felt bad leaving the local casino with a few hundred dollars in those mini tourneys, with those people that you know dont gamble for fun you can tell they have a problem.

[CardSharp]

This is an interesting thread. Heres one-I once cheated a bunch of drug dealers out of $50 playing poker. Now keep in mind that i wouldn't normaly cheat, as there is much more satisfaction in wining honestly, but there was no way i was watching them walk out with the money. Was this imoral? Personaly I found nothing wrong with it because i know where they got the money, selling crack. Now if they made that money honestly I wouldn't eaven consider cheating.

[ashmc2]

It's the act not the means that makes it bad. Cheating drug dealer, what has the world come to. I shake my head in disgust. And what would have happened had you been caught. Would it then have been worth it, card.

[Talking Poker]

Also, where do you draw the line? What if they were strippers or Republicans or whatever other occupation you (or whoever) might not approve of.

You know what they say: Two wrongs don't make a right.

Of course, three lefts do.

[Aequitas58]

Raise hand if anyone else did three lefts in their head.

I hate you sometimes, TP!

[GTDawg]

A Utilitarian would say that taking money out of the drug dealers hands is ultimately a better good for society. So, the ends would justify the means of cheating to take the money from them.

That being said, I doubt you took the money to a local children's charity and donated it all.

And Kant would say that you were a jerk and your view of immortality is skewed beyond reproach concerning what is right and wrong. The results do not validate the action.

*shrug*
----------

Definitely an interesting thread though.

[Talking Poker]

[Talking Poker]

Freaking smart people. I tells ya!

(It's been way too long since I've been in school and actually used my brain)

Good post.

[GTDawg]

I had my second ethics test Thursday =)

[Akverno]

I have to write a paper at the moment comparing utilitarianism to kant's view's on ethics. What a small freakin world.

[Tony Cheval]

I work at a gas station. The big seller for merchandise is....that's right.

Cigarettes.

Somehow I'm not losing sleep over the poker issue.

[Reel Deal]

I've had enough bad beats laid on me by these idiot gamblers to keep any thoughts of pity or morality at bay.

Ah, what am I talking about, the concept of morality was completely drained out of me in law school.