Thoughts on Backing

[badblood44]

I've toyed with the idea of asking for backers for a large-ish tournament entry in the coming months. But I feel uncomfortable doing so.

First, my tournament game is not on par with my cash game, which I feel is pretty strong.

Second, I really hate the thought of losing other people's money, even if they're more than willing to part with it via a backing agreement.

So my question is this: For those of you that have been backed, how did you feel about the whole situation, both before the event and afterwards. TP, I know you were backed for the WSOP event and that things worked out fantastically. Did it affect your play any?

[Talking Poker]

I'm going to move this thread to the main section, so hopefully more people will read it. This section has gotten pretty annoying lately

You ask a very good question, and one that I actually thought about at the time. Quite frankly, I feel like having a backer DID help my play, if anything. It definitely didn't have a negative effect on me, but in the back of my mind, I really wanted to do an extra good job to show my backer a positive return on his investment. That was important to me, and I think (if anything), it helped my play.

Some people don't like being backed, because they don't want to have to share their winnings. A number of people told me it woldhave been very difficult to write out the $23,050 check that I wrote and mailed to my backed. For me, I actually realy enjoyed it. I appreciated the opportunity and was glad to have been a good investment for him. Had I not been backed, I probably would have still played with my own money, but who knows if things would have worked out the same way. Maybe I would have played diferently and not made it nearly as deep, ya know?

All in all, it was a good experience for me, and one I would do again.

Oh, and for the record, my backer found me (through a friend), and not the other way around...

[Zybomb]

It has been my experience that when playing with someone elses's money I subconsciously play a little bit tighter than I usually do. Bluff a little less, play back at people less etc....not a \DRASTIC difference.... but I believe there is one....although I don't mean there to be

[Penguinfan]

I can Speak as someone who has put his money behind people, TP included. The last thing I want is for you to change your game at all simply because if I am backing you it's because I have seen you play and think you are a good investment.

Also I would never want someone to feel bad about finishing out of the money, mostly because two of the three people I have backed it was me looking for them.

Everyone involved should be an adult and understand the potential out comes. You should feel no worse losing a backers money than he should feel about cashing part of your winnings, the deal was made prior to the cards in the air.

I partially backed a guy in a small WCOOP tourney, completely backed a guy in the Stars $200+15 and bought 10% of TP one time (which I hope is not the last time he lets me do that). Nobody cashed in any of the games in case you are wondering. That doesn't mean it was a bad move on my part and doesn't mean I won't do it again.

[Aequitas58]

Awesome thread. It seems like I've been wading through crap all week, but I like the topic and responses so far.

In poker, pool, and chess, I have played the role of backer and player. I have won, I have lost, but each "opportunity" is fun. Some of my greatest pool "memories" involve backer situations.

I always felt more pressure when I'm backed because it's not my money. I'm much more "reckless" with my money than I am with someone else's because I want to show a good return, and I want to be able to use that investor in the future.

That being said, I guess it does (somewhat) affect my play, but only to the extent that it makes me play better. But that's just me. Pressure is natural, I think it just comes down to how you handle the pressure. I think this is what Zybomb was alluding to.

I like that TP didn't care about writing that check. I don't think I would have cared either. In my mind, if not for the backer, I wouldn't be writing the check to begin with. It's a simple business transaction.

Oh, and anyone who says their game doesn't change if they are playing w/ backer-money has either (i) never been backed, or (ii) is full of shit.

IMHO.

[oketz7777]

there is nothing wrong with backers on the contrary its a good thing think about players who want to make money but are bad at the game so others will play for them and give them some of the winnings.

[Reel Deal]

Please tell me English is not your first language.

[chrisash]

I backed my brother inlaw in a Bowling tourney.i know it not about poker but its about backing...........It was a $60 entry fee and 1st took $3000 so i had no doubts on backing him cause he is a great bowler and all i can lose was $60 and gain alot..........He ended up winning like $960 so it worked out in the end but he didnt get 1st. I was happy.

P.S willl back him again

[Hawt]

I haven't backed anything really major but I have put up the money for friends in small tournaments around my school campus, usually around $20. It's nice for me because if I bust out and one of my friends comes in the top 5 (usually 20 players or so) I get my money back and then $60+ more.

Being the backer is nice, but I couldn't imagine having to pay a backer in a bigger tournament though.

Take Steve Dannenmann for example, his friend backed 5k of his 10k entry and in turn got half of his winnings, something around 2.25million.

If you look at it though, (and I hope I am getting this all right) Dannenmann won something like 4.5million for second place. My guess is that he had to pay around 1.8 million in taxes, leaving him with 2.7 million. So by the time he gave half to his friend he ended up with only like 1.35million.

Personally I don't think I could risk giving up that much money, because 1.35 million isn't that much in the big scheme of things.

I don't know much about backing though, I'm guessing not every situation is that extreme and that in most cases, backers don't get 50%. I think someone mentioned earlier they took 10% from TP one time, which wouldn't be so bad.

-Tim

[Talking Poker]

I sold him 10% of my action. This is different than "backing."

As for your post, I don't think I get it. One minute you are saying you couldn't "give up that much money," and the next you are saying the exact same amount "isn't that much." Well, which is it?

Also.... why not think about it like I do:

Would you rather play in a $10k tourney with a $56 million prizepool or a $0 freeroll with a $28 million freeroll? If you have loads and loads of $10k bills lying around, sure, put yourself in. But if you don't, why not play in the $28 million freeroll???

[Hawt]

It's been a long night with no sleep. I'll try to rephrase it to make better sense.

I try to look at things in terms of "could I retire on this much money." In Dannenmann's case, since I am so young, I think if I won 4.5 million, I could retire on that. But he had to give 40% or so of that to taxes leaving him with 2.7 million, which would be harder to retire on, but would still be possible with some good investments.

I couldn't retire on 1.35 million though, which is what I am guessing he was left with. 1.35 million just isn't that much, which is why I wouldn't be able to give up the OTHER 1.35 million.

I think I just confused myself more trying to explain it, but hopefully you can sort of see where I am coming from.

I never really thought about it like that though and when you put it like that it makes sense.

I mean don't get me wrong 1.35 million is still a good deal of money, but it isn't as much as most people tend to think it is, which is why I was thinking about it in terms of "being able to retire". On a side note I guess it really isn't all that smart to be thinking of poker as a retirement plan, but when it gets into that much money, and I hear people on ESPN talking about how life changing the money these people are winning I can't help it.

Edit: You said you gave him 10% of your action. I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean. I think it means that he pays you a certain amount and then takes 10% of whatever you get, but that definition sounds like backing to me, could you explain the difference please?
Thanks,
-Tim

[jillaj]

Thinking about it in the freeroll sense is a great idea. I have been backed in a few tourneys and it didn't change the way I played at all. However when I do finish out of the money it isn't any more disappointing when it is someone elses money than when I lose my own.

Greed is the only reason people would have a tough time giving up the money that they won. Most people play the what if and could of or should have game. Like taking down a 10k prize and having to give 5k to a backer.I imagine most people would sit there and stew about how they should really have that full amount instead of looking at it like a freeroll for half the amount as TP suggested.

[Hawt]

Sorry that this is kind of like a double post since my other post was only a few minutes before this, but I think this is one of the smartest things I have heard. I know that is how I think, or hopefully now, used to think.

[chrisash]

If I was backed i dont think i would mind paying the backer 50%
Just think about backers usally spot you cause you are broke and cant afford it and if you win then really think about it.....if he didnt back you then none of yall would get any cash cause you wouldnt be in!

[Talking Poker]

I guess I just don't understand this whole retirement logic. Say first prize in a poker tournament is $50,000. There are 4 people entered, and for $1, they will let you enter too for a 5 person winner take all tourney. Would you not play, because even if you won, you wouldn't be able to retire? I guess I don't see what that has to do with anything?

And as I see it, it would actually be $1 CHEAPER for you to enter the WSOP if you had a backer, but again, you don't seem to think the prize money is worthwhile. Would you not be happy if you won enough to buy a house or a few cars, or a freaking ipod? This is free money to you if you are backed. Where retirement comes from out of this, I don't know...

Why play at all if you are only looking to retire after one big score? You're not going to win enough in one night of playing $1000/2000 to be able to retire (let alone $1/$2), so is that not a high enough stakes game for you?

Sounds to me like you should quit poker and focus on the lottery.

[Hawt]

Of course I would take a shot at $50,000 that is a nice amount of money. I realize that the goal of poker is to be a long term winner.

It's like in Dannenmann's case, it wasn't free money to him because he wasn't 100% backed. He only took home the share from the money he put up, so he would have been better off putting up the other 5k himself, of course he didn't know how well he was going to do. It would be a different story if I was being backed 100% and giving back 50% to the backer because then in that case it is "free money".

The retirement idea comes in when I watch things like the WSOP on TV and hear the announcers talking about how life changing the money these players are making is, it makes me think about how life changing it actually is. Granted a million or so dollars is a nice pick-up but it isn't nearly as much as it seems it is in the long run.

My idea of backing was really messed up when I first posted in this thread, sort of tunnel-visioned in on just one type. So now, I really have no idea where the hell I am trying to take my point in this thread so I'm just going to quit while I'm behind.

Edit: I keep losing the lottery, it's not like I haven't tried.

[ChipFish]

It IS life-changing money for most
Think about it...
We all have bills every month
What would happen if one day you all of a sudden had an extra $100k sitting in your bank account?
Well... That would make the mortgage that much easier, All of your debt could be paid off (I hope).... you can get that new car you always wanted but could never justify.... etc.... = Life-Changing

[nflchad]

The average person in the US makes between 40-60K a year, i have to think that making 20x your yearly salary in a week is a lot of money, certainly life changing as far as I'm concerned.