Poker Lessons????

Penguinfan · #1 12-11-04, 08:01 PM

Would you consider taking lessons from a winning player, not just reading a book, but actually paying for lessons from an experienced winning player? Annie Duke (love her or hate her) has done wonders for Bennifer's game, could they help players like me? Who would you look for? I am not saying pay Hellmuth 25 grand for a night's lessons, but there are alot of players who aren't very well known who probably give lessons on the side I would think. Do you know of anyone who does?

If you have credentials and are lurking the forum here, ask TP for my e-mail address, I may actually be interested in looking into this. I enjoy playing and just can't seem to break through to the profitable area, still inching closer, but would like to see if next year this could actually turn into cash coming my way instead of the other way around.

Thoughts?

Gutzz · #2 12-11-04, 08:07 PM

Hey,

I don't really think hourly lessons is the answer. If I were to pay someone to help my game, I'd send them a few thousand of my hands and ask them where I coulda played better. Then maybe spend 20 min talking about the key hands he had of mine to support his arguement.

Then play maybe 3 or 5k more hands (he pics out key ones) and come back with a bunch of more hands and ask him to spot another hole in your game.

It'd probably be more expensive than just getting hour long lessons because he'd have to sift through a lot of your hands, but I think it'd be much more worth while.

Cheers,

Gutzz

Windbreaker · #3 12-11-04, 08:09 PM

I wouldn't take lessons unless we're talking about big money. Or if you won a satellite to a big tourney like the wsop main event, and needed some guidance cause you were just getting outplayed and dominated.

Penguinfan · #4 12-11-04, 08:22 PM

And there lies the problem, I don't know if I am getting outplayed or just flat out unlucky. Everyone wants to think it's the latter in their own game, but like Mike says in Rounders (bows head for a moment in respect) "Why do the same five guys make it to the final table of the WSOP every year, what are they the luckiest 5 guys in Las Vegas" Now that is obviously not the case, but the seniment in still the same, are people who play for a living just the luckiest guys on the planet, or do they know things some of us never will unless we get taught?

Windbreaker · #5 12-11-04, 08:38 PM

If you don't know if you're getting outplayed or not, then you are. If you're ahead by a bunch when the money goes in and lose, then that's just a bad beat. Usually you need to find the weaker players at your table, and try to work them over and avoid the players that you know are pros are just better players.

Gutzz · #6 12-11-04, 08:39 PM

Why don't you post some hands that you play Pfan?

Cheers,

Gutzz

Penguinfan · #7 12-11-04, 08:56 PM

Yes I am constantly getting beat when I have the best hand going in. In with the best of it, out with the worst of it. But perhaps I am going in as a slight favorite, and even though I am the favorite are they hands I shouldn't be calling all-ins with? Short stack goes all in and I have him covered with AK, he turns over QJ, yea I am the favorite, and AK is not a hand you throw away short handed, but is it a hand you call an all-in bet with, I mean your gonna lose almost half the time with it, but you can't just fold everytime a short stack pushes in. So again I am not sure if this is being outplayed or just unlucky. Easy to say unlucky when AK gets outdrawn by QJ, but if you don't put yourself in a position to lose you won't.

I really think lessons from a better player to clear up trouble spots like this would really help.

Aequitas58 · #8 12-11-04, 09:05 PM

I would definitely take lessons from a better player.

It's tough though, because different players have different styles. Dan Harrington v. Daniel N., for instance.

Are you interested in adopting someone's style of play or just see what they have to offer and take what you want from it? The answer to this question, I guess depends on how good your teacher is, and whether or not you want to blindly accept everything he/she says.

Another question you have to ask yourself is: What are you doing this for? Are you interested in making this a career, or do you play as a hobby - hoping to make a few bucks? If you're interested in poker as a career, I would think a mentor is extremely necessary. Not even all poker knowledge, but things like money management, bluffing, choosing games, tournament play, and the list goes on. On the other hand, if you are just having a good time and would like to make a few bucks, I think you can do that by reading books, learning, and playing as much as you can.

I play as a hobby - poker is not a career option and I don't even want it to be. I will say, however, that I am a successful low-limit player and I do pretty well in tournaments when I play seriously. I would take lessons, at a reasonable rate, if only to broaden my horizons, becuase I plan on playing higher limits when I become an attorney. (Still though, it will be a hobby!)

I could go on and on.

BrianSwa · #9 12-11-04, 09:58 PM

I think there really good at analizing players bets and actions to know a general idea what they have then do the math to see if there a big dog or if they got a really good advantage of beating the hand they think they most likley have. As much as I hate phil hellmuth he is very very good at this. Sorry got alot of run-on sentences there trying trying to play this torney.

jdiana86 · #10 12-11-04, 10:20 PM

As depressing as it sounds, I believe that you are either born good at cards, or born bad at cards. Of course, if you are "born bad", if you play long and hard enough to improve your game, I'm sure many people have broken through and become winning players. Having good instincts is probably one of the most imporant qualities of a winning player though.

In response to your question would you pay to learn from a pro or take lessons from a pro...Yes. This is also possible by either going to the proffesor's fantasy poker camp, and also pokerschool.com is probable a good way to learn the "proper" techinques. I also read somewhere that they are going to be making poker boot camps to turn people into good players.

mmbapmashida · #11 12-12-04, 12:28 AM

If I got lessons, I would just go to a pro, say, Josh Arieh, and have him advise me while I play an online MTT. Josh Arieh's lessons are fairly cheap too, compared to Hellmuth's at least.

Now don't say Arieh is a brat...I think he does have bad table manners on occasion but he always apologizes. I have seen several of his apologies on RGP.

Tuff Luck · #12 12-12-04, 01:11 AM

I heard his lessons are cheap as well. Don't know if I'd take them though.

Kidd7138 · #13 12-12-04, 03:50 AM

I'd definitely take lessons from a pro. You gain knowledge with experience and anyone whos giving poker lessons probably has a lot more experience at a whole different level than I have. Even if all they do is point out some weaknesses in your game that you should watch for they've still improved your game.

Gutzz · #14 12-12-04, 04:51 AM

Are you guys talking lessons on the net/phone or face to face?

I think irl would be much better, but online wouldn't be so bad i guess...

Youguys checked out the HU match post on 2+2? it's a 2+2er vs. Josh Arieh. Very very entertaining.

Cheers,

Gutzz

Windbreaker · #15 12-12-04, 11:27 AM

Even if you take lessons for the worlds best player - it still may not be of any use to you. As an example, I recall reading an article from Daniel Negreneau. He was trying to teach Evelyn Ng his style of play. The aggressive approach to poker and just beating people up with the mental side of the game. His style has been a consistent winner for him making him one of the best in the world, but when he tried to teach Evelyn the same technique, she ended up doing worse than before. This is because, that's not her style. She's a tight player - asking her to change her style doesn't work. She doesn't get the table image like most guys either. It's hard to get intimidated from a 5 foot asian girl :P

omahilo · #16 12-12-04, 12:50 PM

if you were going to get lessons from a pro, you should get lessons from a pro that plays your style. Like me for example, I play alot like Phil Hellmuth... very tight at the beginning, playing only the 'Hellmuth 15' and let the idiots take themselves out then switch gears after that.

Like if you play alot of suited connectors and such, you would be more suited (no pun intended) to get lessons from Daniel Negreanu than Dan Harrington or Phil Hellmuth.

2Tone · #17 12-13-04, 02:02 AM

to emulate the pros, because the games we play are so different. The money I make is from my opponets playing badly, not me playing well. The more solid I play -- and less fancy -- the more I make. That's pretty lame, but as Lou said, you have to be honest with yourself about your motivation, and mine is make small but steady $, at least for now.

Still, if I had the chance I'd love to sit down with a pro just for the experience of it all.

omahilo · #18 12-13-04, 02:38 AM

if your looking just to 'sit with a pro' you can play the $10+1 tourneys on stars... several pros play in those. Gavin Griffin plays in a few of them.

Aequitas58 · #19 12-13-04, 03:02 AM

I think he means sit down and talk / learn, as opposed to sit down and play.

2Tone · #20 12-13-04, 01:39 PM

Yeah, just getting my clock cleaned in a low-$ game online wouldn't be that much fun. I'd want to hear stories, watch how they played hands, etc. If I could choose any pro, it would by Harrington, who I believe is a stronger player than some of the more famous guys who have a done a great job marketing themselves.

junYUN · #21 12-13-04, 03:47 PM

i would love to take lessons, it never really occured to me before. i think it would really elevate my game, especially if i ever considered entering the WSOP. it would be nice to have some sort of "coach" at the end of the day preaching poker to me.

SirFWALGMan · #22 12-13-04, 04:12 PM

I agree with the Penguin. I would LOVE to take lessons from Annie Duke or someone like that. At the very least it would confirm to you that your playing hands correctly. They could give you such good lessons on aggression, and how your marginal hands are.. A book is great but someone who does this for a living and is successful could teach you SOOO much!

Aequitas58 · #23 12-13-04, 06:52 PM

Agree. Books are great, but Phil Hellmuth (or, insert Pro here) will *not* teach you his winning strategy for $14.95. Most of the books out there cover the same material. The difference is when you have two authors who play differently: loose or tight, etc.

Another thing is said for experience. You have to be in the game, consider your instincts, and learn from previous hands.