The Ace King debate

[Zybomb]

I'm hoping this thread can start some good discussion with points for both sides

(usually how I start a thread that receives 3 replies, one by myself, but whatever)

When in Vegas and I was sitting cash with TP, the table got into a discussion over the dreaded (?) AK hand. This stemmed off of TP telling his 'big hit' story from the ME (incidently with AK)

If you are facing a raise in front of you (from a middle of the road player as far as tightness and looseness go) do you reraise or just call with AK

I generally mix it up in a 60%/40% or so ratio of reraises and calls. A player sitting down with us, who was most involved with the discussion, took the position that TP made a big mistake by not reraising with AK in this WSOP hand. I didn't think it was a mistake, as I just said I like a 60%/40% mix.

Im going to list the pluses and minuses of each here. When responding with your preference, please indicate because of which one of these reasons is the biggest factor , or add another reason not listed.

Reraising:

- You define your hand preflop

- You take control of the betting once the flop hits and give yourself a better chance to scoop the pot even if you miss. You'll miss the flop 66% of the time with AK, if you just call and your opponent CBs, now what? Check/fold?

- You will likely get your opponent to fold several even shots. If not, they may fold the best hand on the flop to you (either because they put you on a bigger hand, or because a scare card dropped)

Just Calling the Raise:

- You keep the pot smaller, with a "drawing hand"

- Ace King, while a monster starting hand, is still a "top pair" hand, and thus it is unlikely you will win a huge pot with it. More likely you'll lose one. Like the first point said, you keep the pot smaller

- If you reraise, what types of hands will fold? AJ AT KQ KJ KT! these are all hands that you WANT in the pot, because you have them dominated... it is your only way of potentially winning a big pot with this "top pair" hand (AK)


So with that said, what's YOUR take on the situation and how do you play it and for what reasons (listed or not listed?)

[Aequitas58]

Factors that influence my decision:

-Size of the original raise. If the original raise is a min-raise, I'll re-raise for value, isolation, etc etc.

-Position of the original raiser. If the raiser is UTG, I'm more apt to call, esp. if he knows how to play.

-Table Conditions. If the avg. raise for the table is 5xbb, and he leads out 3xbb, I re-raise.

-Original raiser's Laggy / Taggy-ness is always something to take into consideration. (Probably the most important consideration.)

[Zybomb]

These are all solid factors and correct -- but they assume a skew towards one side.

Taking a middle of the road situation such as:

Opponent opens in 4th position (after it is folded to him) for 4x the BB which is the standard open.

Opponent is slightly aggressive, he likely isn't opening with junk, is smart enough to fold A7, yet is capable of open ing with AQ AJ KQs 88 99 etc, as well as JJ QQ KK AA in the same fashion.

Which way do you lean in this instance?

[Aequitas58]

Obv. this isn't 6max, but if it was, I'd be hard pressed to just call. Anyway, full table: I think this is a much clearer ... call and re-evaluate on the flop.

[Kurn]

The key for me is how deep my stack is and right behind that, how big my opponent's is. Deep stacked, I'm inclined to play small ball and just call in position, primarily because most people tend to CB when an A or K flops, so in those cases I make more against the type who would raise AT or KQ preflop then fold to the reraise. If the flop misses you but looks benign and he checks, your flat call may look like a pair and a half-pot bet takes it there, but even if you're called its less than you'd have put in with a preflop reraise. That may lead to a tough turn decision but you can't win a tourney without ever having to make tough choices.

If my M is below 12 or so, then it changes things. Now I'm more likely to want to always reraise and go to war if need be. To win a tournament you have to both beat AK and win with AK.

Late in a tourney, especially against good players, you know your opponents are going to be more aggressive, so the balance again shifts more towards reraising even with a reasonably big stack.

[Talking Poker]

You know, it's funny.... we had this discussion at the table (and I definitely respect the guy who was saying it's a must raise hand, preflop), but even after that discussion, in the next two tourneys I played, I found myself calling with AK more than raising with it.

Certianly there are circumstances where I'll reraise with it, especially when I'm short stacked, etc, but assuming deep stacks and normal conditions, I really do prefer to just call with it. It allows you to see a flop, and it helps disguise your hand a bit.

Then again, I've always been a see cheaper flops and control the size of the pot and save the "plays" for after the flop kind of guy... I'm just more comfortable playing like that.

[Zybomb]

On a ragged board (Say 9 5 4) do you simply fold / check-fold when your opponent bets out?

[Talking Poker]

Dare I say, "It depends?"

Usually, yes. But if I think I can make a play on him (call the flop, raise the turn, for example) I will. I need to be confident he is on high cards or is good enough to fold a medium pair though.

[Windbreaker]

I think it's fine for a player like TP to flat call the raise with deepstack poker. To me, that means TP feels like he's a better post flop player than his opponent...and can out play him even if he doesn't hit.

Of course that doesn't mean you should be calling raises in this spot every time...but if you take a look at Daniel Negreanu's blog from this years WSOP ME....he said he played 90% of all dealt hands in the first 2-3 days at the WSOP. He can only do this because he's one of the best post flop players around.

So another factor into the call vs raise is the post flop ability of both you and your opponent....I would much rather raise in this spot vs Phil Ivey....rather than a tight player conservative player....but is a weak passive player post flop.

[kkirk1329]

i see no problems in just calling either, it gives you the option to throw your hand away on the flop, after all AK is no good if you dont hit a flop, its just ace high.

i see no problem with reraising either though, if you reraise you give yourself a good chance of being able to scoop the pot up on the flop with a nice sized bet even if you dont hit the flop.

[Talking Poker]

Good point.... I hsould clarify - If a guy I know is better than me raises preflop and I look down and see AK, I'm reraising here 90% of the time. TYPICALLY, I feel that I am a better post-flop player than my opponents, but when Phil Ivey opens, I'm reraising. He'll be plenty aware of my table image, and will likely fold anything but a true monster right there.

[bdawg31]

I guess i do: WHAT WOULD DON DO?!?!

End of discussion. You might as well lock up this thread.

[Defendant]

As far as no-limit goes, its a lot more of an "it depends" situation. For limit, I tend to threebet, for the following reasons:

- Im willing to go to 4 bets with it hands down

- If I get reraised, this gives me a whole lot of information about the other guys hand

If it comes three bets to me, Im a lot more likely to just call and reevaluate.