Turbo SNGs

[Dodoubled]

I find that turbo sit-and-gos are lot like 10-dollar lap dances. They take your money, fuck with you for a little bit and then send you packing before you even knew what hit you.

Anyone else feel the same way? Please, discuss.

[JDMcNugent7]

good fuckin analogy. cheap whores.

[johnp158]

Totally beatable.

[BrianSwa]

maybe, but also takes alot of the skill out of the game and adds alot more to the luck factor. When the blinds are going up so much the action is forced alot sooner then it usually is.

I personally dont like them and dont play them for that reason, I concider poker a game of mostly skill with a little luck thrown in there. I personally dont like doing coin flips and with the turbos you are forced to do them way too early, I peronally only like doing them when I have a good chip lead over someone. I dont like putting my tourney life on a 55% flip, but thats just me some like the action of getting all there money in and either hoping the hit or hold.

[johnp158]

Dude. I'm telling you. You have no idea. Turbos can be crushed over the long term. If you learn how to play them and multitable you can do very well. In fact, multi-tabling the small stakes Turbos is a good way to build a roll, provided that you play within the limits of your bankroll.

BTW, it is debatable whether or not Turbo SNGs are really poker.

[BrianSwa]

I never said it wasnt real poker, I said it dosent fit my style of play. I dont doubt there are people that can beat them but how I play they are not beatable for me. I like to mix it up, vary my style throughout the tourney and take advantage of players I concider weak. In a turbo I have no time to do that, how I play I enjoy the 12-15 hour tourneys, that is another reason why I basicly let Chuck play all the sit and go's and I play mostley MTT's.

of course my sucky ass bankroll managment is another reason , I play selective agressive poker and would not have time to figure out my opponents in a turbo, and multi tabling I usually dont do for same reason, I try not to play more then 3 tables at once because want them all up so I can see how everyone plays and take notes so I can use them later in tourney. Maybe I'am being to anal about that but hey thats how I play and its done good for me so far so why change it just so I can multi a turbo?

BUT if it works for someone else hell I dont fault you for playing them and again in no way would I ever say its not poker, unless it was play money that is not real poker


even in normal sit and go's I want it to last more then a hour because by the time we get 3 handed or something I want to have a very good idea how this guy plays and I want him to have no clue how I play.

[johnp158]

editing troubles. The post is below.

[johnp158]

12-15 hours? That's just crazy.

And I wasn't accusing you of saying they're not real poker. I was saying "they're not real poker."

[BrianSwa]

[quote=johnp158][quote=BrianSwa]I never said it wasnt real poker, I said it dosent fit my style of play. I dont doubt there are people that can beat them but how I play they are not beatable for me. I like to mix it up, vary my style throughout the tourney and take advantage of players I concider weak. In a turbo I have no time to do that, how I play I enjoy the 12-15 hour tourneys, that is another reason why I basicly let Chuck play all the sit and go's and I play mostley MTT's.

of course my sucky ass bankroll managment is another reason , I play selective agressive poker and would not have time to figure out my opponents in a turbo, and multi tabling I usually dont do for same reason, I try not to play more then 3 tables at once because want them all up so I can see how everyone plays and take notes so I can use them later in tourney. Maybe I'am being to anal about that but hey thats how I play and its done good for me so far so why change it just so I can multi a turbo?

BUT if it works for someone else hell I dont fault you for playing them and again in no way would I ever say its not poker, unless it was play money that is not real poker...
whops sorry missread the origional post.

yea I cant tell you how much I completley love deepstack tournies and also how I just LOVE limit tournies. Also $3 rebuys are just amazing, becuase for a very little investment you can make alot and play a really really long tourney.

actully not sure If I have played a deepstack one now that I think of it but as for the limit ones yes I have and they are great for my style of play. Getting me kinda excited to play in a deepstack one need a damn day off at work 1st. It is another reason I prefer live tourneys over online ones also, in live you have alot of time to figure out your opponents.

[jillaj]

I will just add that I am very partial to turbos myself. They are very nice to me.

[Talking Poker]

I know you've had a lot of success with these in the past, and would be interested in reading a long, detailed post from you about how you beat them. "If you learn to play them," you say - well, why not teach us? A detailed post would be great, but recording and posting a few videos would be even better. What do you think? You up for it?

[johnp158]

I probably should have phrased it a little differently and said "a lot of people crush them..." Personally, I've played almost zero poker in the last 2 months because I just moved and have a new job and am trying to apply to grad school this fall. Before I moved I was in the process of playing the $27 turbos on Stars and learning how to beat them. In reality I’ve only played about 800 of them, with an ROI of 12-13%. From most things I’ve read, though, you can’t expect to maintain anything much higher than that at the $27 level, although some people do. A 15% ROI definitely doesn’t sound like “crushing,” but if you can maintain that while multitabling you’ll be doing very well.

As far as actually posting a HH or a video, I think I’d like to do that. I may not have any time to do so until next week because I’ll be out of town this weekend, but I’ll see what I can do. I wouldn’t expect it to be “this is how you should play each and every hand because I’m an expert.” More of a “this is my reasoning for doing so-and-so, let’s discuss” kind of thing.

And FWIW, I know Boobie doesn’t really play these anymore, but he probably has a better understanding of this than I do. Especially SNG Power Tools and ICM, which I just haven’t spent enough time with.

[Dodoubled]

I second that video thing. I don't believe I'm horrible at them by any stretch, and I'll even go so far as to attribute much of my recent poor run at them (I've final tabled 5 of the last 7 I've played and managed to finish eighth each time -- top 7 pay), to mostly tough breaks. I also believe turbos more closely resemble live SNGs, at least in terms of the speed of the blind increase.

[eejit101]

Trubos i play in last 1 hour. you have 30 minutes of fast poker to play before in effect you "have" to gamble your tourney life on a coin flip.

Im gonna only say one thing - Turbos on stars are suited for aggressive players.

[thrash1294]

I just started playing them small stakes So far they seem very loose

I am using roy rounders sng strategy I must admit so far it works

Roy Rounders sng strategy
It's so simple...

And so obvious...

Yet no one seems to get it!

What's this easy-to-use secret for beating Sit and
Go tournaments online?

The answer is this:

PATIENCE.

I know... I know... you were expecting something
more, um... "secretive".

But the truth is, winning at Sit and Go's is
pretty damn easy. I find them easier than "real"
poker games, actually.

And that's why every time I turn on the computer
these days I feel like a kid in a candy store...
ready to clean out the amateurs at the poker room
of my choosing.

But I'm getting ahead of myself.

What I want to discuss here is why PATIENCE is so
critical for Sit and Go success.

First, let's get back to some basics. There are
four types of poker playing styles:

1. Tight-Passive
2. Tight-Aggressive
3. Loose-Passive
4. Loose-Aggressive

Your style should be tight-aggressive.

Don't confuse "styles" with "preferences". If you
want to be a good card player, you DON'T get to
DECIDE to be tight-aggressive.

You MUST be tight-aggressive in order to be good.

Period.

Of course there are DEGREES of each playing style,
and that's what accounts for the differences
between one pro and another... the DIFFERENT
DEGREES of tight-aggressive.

OK, now let me ask you:

What does "tight-aggressive" really MEAN?

Here's the answer:

It means that you play TIGHT in terms of hand
selection, but AGGRESSIVE when you enter a pot.

Be careful... "tight" and "aggressive" are not
opposites. "Tight" and "loose" are opposites. And
so are "aggressive" and "passive".

TIGHT refers to hand selection. AGGRESSIVE refers
to betting.

OK... so this is how playing styles relate to Sit
and Go's...

The NATURE of Sit and Go's makes them OVERRUN by
LOOSE-AGGRESSIVE style players.

The reasons are simple:

1. You can play a Sit and Go virtually anytime,
anywhere, and with anyone.

This means there's very low risk in LOSING, since
you can easily just move on to the next game. It's
not like in "offline" poker when once you get
knocked out you're DONE.

2. The money seems less "real".

Let's be honest... We all know the feeling of
making a deposit into an online poker account and
thinking to ourselves how it doesn't quite feel
like REAL MONEY. Am I right?

3. There's no "embarrassment".

Online poker is virtually 100% anonymous. If you
make a stupid move, you're not worried about what
the other players THINK of you. Who cares?

After all, the other "players" are really just
silly little avatars on an animated screen.

OK, so those are three (there are many more) of
the reasons why Sit and Go's (and pretty much all
of online poker) are dominated by the playing
style LOOSE-AGGRESSIVE.

Loose-aggressive is also known as the "manic" playing style. And what's
the FASTEST way to beat
a manic?

Yep, you guessed it...

PATIENCE.

The reason is because MANICS are constantly
playing many hands (loose) and doing so
aggressively.

What happens is that it's difficult to get a READ
on them because you never know whether they're
bluffing or not... unless you call their bets...
which you can't do because you don't have that
great a hand.

Has this ever happened to you?

Have you ever been up against a player who seemed
to be playing VERY aggressively and you just
couldn't figure out if they were bluffing or
holding great cards?

And then when you got FED UP with it and DID make
a call, he had you beat?

My guess is that it HAS happened to you... just as
it's happened for me.

The key thing to know is that THERE ARE certain
steps you can take to defend this. (I even wrote
an entire chapter about this topic in my book.)

But fortunately in Sit and Go's, this isn't really
much of a problem. Because you're usually not up
against just one or two manics. You're up against
an ENTIRE TABLE of them.

That means you shouldn't be CALLING anyone's bets.

Instead, YOU should push the action when you have
a monster hand... and ONLY when you have a monster
hand. And that, of course, requires...

PATIENCE!

It's actually much easier this way. Because with a
table full of manics, you can rely on getting
action with all your great hands.

(I should point out here that I'm generally
referring to Sit and Go's where the entry fee is
less than $50. When the stakes are higher the
quality of play is usually more intelligent.)

OK, so what I'm about to tell you might take some
of the "fun" out of Sit and Go's. But it will
increase your profits dramatically...

Here's what your Sit and Go "experience" should
look like when the field is from 8 or 10 players
down to 4 or 5 players.

**************************************************

If your hole cards are...

A-A, K-K - Go all in pre-flop if you're in early
position. If in late position and there was a
raise, go all-in. If people were just trying to
limp in, make a raise... and then bet very
aggressively after the flop.

Q-Q, A-K - If you're in an early position, bet
big (but not all-in). If you're in a late
position, use your read on the other players to
determine whether or not you think you have the
best hand. If so, bet huge or go all-in.

All other pocket pairs - Limp-in. If you spike
trips, go all-in. If not, fold.

Suited connectors - Limp-in if the blinds are
reasonably low. Fold suited connectors under 7-6.

Ace-X suited - Limp-in if possible. Only bet if
you hit the flush.

All other hands - Fold.

**************************************************

What you've just seen will be completely different
than most "starting hand strategies" out there.

And that chart is NOT for all types of no limit
Texas Holdem. We're ONLY talking about games that
match these three criteria:

1. Online poker Sit and Go tournaments
2. Low stakes (under $50 entry)
3. While there are more than 4 or 5 players at the
table (in an 8-man or 10-man Sit and Go)

DO NOT use that starting hand advice for any other
poker games... because that's NOT how you should
play your starting hands in general.

So why would Sit and Go's be so much different
than "normal" poker play?

Like I said before, the reason is because Sit and
Go's are heavily dominated by loose-aggressive
players... and THIS is how you beat those guys.

Why exactly does this strategy work?

It works because you're only playing monsters.

Now... if the players at Sit and Go's were SMART,
they'd OBSERVE that you're only playing monster
hands... and they'd FOLD as soon as you went
all-in.

I mean... it only makes logical sense, right?

Indeed, this is how it works in live games. But
not online. Because for online poker there's
another important factor working to your
advantage...

NO ONE'S PAYING ATTENTION!

The truth is, many players are either drunk,
hungover, stupid, or playing multiple tables at
once. Or all of the above!

They're not paying attention to your betting
patterns. They're just playing the CARDS, not the
PLAYERS.

I call my strategy for patiently waiting for
monster hands and then going all-in:

"Tight-Aggressive Squared"

The reason is because my strategy is like the
playing style tight-aggressive... but on STEROIDS.

Why go all-in so much?

It's like I said... you WILL get action. Maybe not
every single time, but enough times to make it
well worth your while.

For Sit and Go's, all you need to do is double-up
ONCE before the field gets to 4 or 5 players.

THEN you can start playing aggressively. What will
happen is that the 4 or 5 players LEFT IN THE GAME
will usually be the smarter ones. And some of them
WILL notice by now that you're playing tight.

SO THEN what you do is steal blinds. It's easy.

Everyone tightens up when there are four or five
players in a hand because they want to make the
money... and they want to be VERY CAREFUL to make
it into the top three.

That is when you steal some blinds and add to your
chip stack.

Then, after that point you'll be in third place
and will be in the money.

I have a ton of strategies for getting you into
FIRST place too (after you get down to three
players), but I'll have to save those for a
different newsletter.

You know, when I first came up with this strategy
of "Tight-Aggressive Squared" I wasn't COMPLETELY
convinced it was the best way to win at Sit and
Go's.

At the time, I had been trying a lot of things.
The idea of just being EXTREMELY PATIENT and then
going all-in with monster hands seemed a little
TOO SIMPLE.

Right?

Then one night, I was at a 10-man Sit and Go. I
went all-in with a big hand early and doubled up.
It was the only hand I got really involved with.

Then... with 9 players still at the table... my
Internet shut off. I didn't know what happened.
All I know is that the Internet just plain STOPPED
WORKING.

I would have called someone... but it was past two
in the morning.

I messed with it for like fifteen minutes and then
just gave up. Oh well... it's just one Sit and Go.

Anyway... I started working on something else on
my computer for awhile until all of the sudden the
Internet came BACK on.

I logged into my poker room to see what had
happened with the game. Immediately the screen
POPPED-UP and the action was to me...

I was still in the game, it wasn't over yet!

Not only that...

But there were only three players left!

I was in third, but still had some remaining chips
to play around with.

I immediately went all-in and everyone folded.
Then I did it again and everyone folded. And a few
hands later I did it AGAIN.

I picked up three enormous sets of blinds and was
right back in the game. The reason everyone was
folding was because I hadn't played a hand in 25
minutes. They were probably wondering what the
hell was going on!

Anyway, as it turned out, I actually WON 1ST for
this Sit and Go. First place baby... and my
Internet only worked for about 1/5 of the game!

After I was done I started thinking about what had
just happened. I realized that by PLAYING in a Sit
and Go you can often do MORE DAMAGE THAN GOOD when
there are lots of players at the table.

And of course, I became 100% convinced that the
"magic equation" for success is:

PATIENCE + AGGRESSION

Your goal for these games should be to place in
the money as much as possible. Period. So why risk
chips on silly hands early on?

They're just not worth it...

The other thing about this strategy is that it's a
HUGE time-saver. Because it doesn't require hardly
any work until there are 4-5 players left. It
makes it MUCH easier to play multiple tables at
once... or do other things while the Sit and Go
plays in the background.

OK, so here's your "Tight-Aggressive Squared" Sit
and Go strategy:

1. Be patient, be patient, be patient!

Only play the hands I showed you earlier. Only bet
before the flop with Aces, Kings, Big Slick, and
Queens.

2. When you catch a monster, go all-in. Don't do
this if you think someone has you beat (i.e.
there's an obvious straight or flush draw on the
board).

I'm talking about only playing hands when you know
you have the best odds of winning.

3. When the field gets down to four or five
players (depending on how high the blinds are and
how many all-in showdowns you've won), shift gears
completely and STOP using this "Tight-Aggressive
Squared" strategy.

That, my friend, is the "secret" to Sit and Go's.

It's obvious... but not-so-obvious.

But it is DEFINITELY simple.

[eejit101]

i didnt read all that, but you do realise we are talking 5 min level blinds yeah? you cant honestly say youll play tight aggressive, when after 15 minutes, about 12 hands, youll only have 10 x BB left

[Boobie Lover]

For the cliff notes version of the Thrash's post, here it is.

Early, play tight.
Later, steal blinds judiciously.


I wrote some things on my blog about SNGs which I think could help some people out.




Note that the links on these posts do not work.

[thrash1294]

Well I am playing just $1 and $4 sngs on full tilt so I am not sure how fast the blinds levels go. I just said its working for me so far.

[eejit101]

full tilts blinds are just weird