late in tourney decision

[stormswa]

I was on MSN with one of my horses today railing him at a final table, in our MSN room was also a friend of mine. A reall good player but not one that I would call consistant, he gets deep a fair number of times but he is either a huge stack or a micro stack he never has a average stack. Ok well when my friend busted out in 5th he was kinda upset but I assured him he played everything correctly but my other friend we will call Mr.Sm for shove monkey disagreed.

here is the question I would like to ask you guys, now I understand with like 5-8 big blind stack we are just in total shove/fold mode because that is the only way we have any fold equity but say we have like 10bb to maybe like 13 do we really need to just shove our hands. For instance my horse had QQ on the button I believe and had about 11bb and just made a normal 3x raise and got called by the blind. The flop was AKx and the blind bet into him, this to me is a clear cut fold, the blinds calling range is Ax and Kx hands so I dont see how we are ahead and if we shove we have zero fold equity.

Mr.Sm argued that we should of never been in that situation and just shoved preflop because we dont want to give our opponents a chance to hit with crap. This just makes no sense to me, I want calls from weak hands here. I dont want to just take the blinds with hands like QQ, AK, KK, JJ etc, I want to get value from them right? Now I undersand the reasoning behind shoving hands like 6-7 with 9bb stacks thinking that if we take blinds great and if we are called we usually will be 40/60 to double through. But shouldnt we be trying to gain value, dont we gain very little by shoving QQ into the blinds here. This is assuming no reads and we dont think they will overcall weak hands of course.

Now also I kinda like just betting 3x and being very willing to call shoves, and it seems to me if we bet 3x with 10bb stack the other stacks are more willing to play back at us then if we were just to shove. For instance someone with AJ is more willing to reraise us if we bet 3x then if we just shove right? and this also means we are going to be moving in on the flop on most flops also. Just wanted to bounce this around with you guys and get your opinions on it.

[jdiana86]

Straight from Phil Gordon's book, "The Real Deal":

13-15 BB - Look for opportunities to raise all-in against a loose raiser with an average or slightly above-average stack. If you can get him to fold, you'll usually pick up a pot around the size of 5 BB.

9-11 BB - You have to start taking risks. Re-raise all-in with any premium hand. Raise all-in to steal blinds from average or medium-big stacks

4-6 - You have only one move, shove. If someone bets if front of you, you may have to call with any PP, Ace with a decent kicker, or any hand you think will be 50/50.

Positive feedback appreciated

[stormswa]

that isnt the situation we are talking about we are talking about when you are opening a pot not when you get a chance to reraise. And we are not talking about stealing we are talking about if we should be trying to get value from hand like QQ or just be happy taking the blinds because we dont want to get outflopped.

[jdiana86]

FWIW In the situation with QQ, I would probably put in 3/4 of my stack, leaving room to come back with a shitty flop.

[stormswa]

lets say blinds are 500/1000

ok wait a second so you have 12bb stack and your going to raise to 9,000 so you can fold and leave yourself 3k which is 3bb stack?

why?

If your going to raise that much of your stack why wouldnt you just put it all in?


no I think if your putting 3/4 of your stack in the middle preflop there is no way your folding no matter what the flop looks like. You do understand by putting 3/4 of your stack in preflop you have just put 75% of your stack in the middle? Which also means there is 18k in the middle and you will have to call 3k to win about 21k. Of you can raise 2.5x to 3x and actually be able to fold a crappy flop and still have enough chips to have fold equity.

[VeryMoonFunk]

With 11 BBs, I shove QQ here every time, which I believe is the correct play in this spot, no?

And jdiana wasn't just talking about a reraise, though the first part of that excerpt mentions raising a light raiser all in after they raise, his whole post in general was just talking about playing a short-stack, not necessarily reraising.

IMO, I think your overanalyzing this, shove QQ every time and quit thinking twice about it.

[jdiana86]

I like to create opprotunity where there is none. It would obviosuly also depend on the average stack, how deep in the tourney you are, and how your opponents play.

[VeryMoonFunk]

LOL if he doesn't understand that.

[stormswa]

but dont you fold out all hands you have dominated?

if we 3x raise here with QQ we get Ax hands to play back at us but if we shove dont we fold out all those hands? dont we want to play against those hands?

I mean I would love for A9 to call me and hit a 279 flop and double me up.

[jdiana86]

I guess I just don't understand the situation well enough...although it is pretty simple I am stubborn in my ways. I guess in the future I should just shove with the two queens

[stormswa]

well if your going to raise 75% of your stack yes you might as well shove the QQ, because trying to play a 3k stack with blinds of 500/1000 is quite honestly pretty silly. I actually dont look at decisions in the way of im raising this % of my stack or that % of my stack I look at it more of how many big blinds im raising and how many big blinds its leaving me after I raise. If I know I have 6bb stack like 6k in chips I can not raise 3k because its only leaving me a 3bb stack so in that situation if im raising it going to be all in, BUT with a 10BB stack I can still raise and be able to fold a real bad flop because 7bb stack or 7000 chips is enough to still have fold equity on a later hand.

This is the reason fold equity is so important and why stealing and as Mr. Gordon said restealing is so important if you have a 3k stack and trying to steal from the big blind it just wont work because you are raising 3k and he already has 1k invested in the pot and there is 500 from the small blind and 25 in antes from all other players so there is about 1750 in pot even before your shove of 3k after your shove there is 4750 in the pot and he only has to call 2k to win that. So pretty much by putting in 75% of your stack you are going on a hope you pick up a monster hand in the next 10 hands. not good.

[BlibbityBlabbity]

This is a little different than opening in MP/EP with QQ (definite push). On the button when it is folded you could make a case for trying to induce a play pushing you in from the blinds. If the blinds would just call your standard raise with your stack (this case) you should shove and they will probably call that too. What was the level of MTT here? If this is low limit, pushing is the better play by far.

Depends on stack sizes and blind tendencies in the is case, but generally pushing is correct. It is too easy for QQ to flop a difficult flop with huge odds to call and a large amount of your stack invested.

[BlibbityBlabbity]

You will see a lot of calls from the blinds with Ax, Kx and other random drawing hands depending on the size of the blinds. What the blinds think of your range is also key here. If you are pushing any hand you are playing for the last few rounds, then a QQ push is disguised and you might a pleasant surprise from a BB big stack.

[stormswa]

thanks BB these were kind of the reasoning posts I wanted to see to weigh the benifits of pushing vs. standard raising. I think in the games I usually play the $4 180s I believe standard raising is better because the blinds have a tendency to shove their Ax hands thinking you are trying to steal. But of course also like you said shoving could be great too because they might overcall their weak Ax and Kx hands thinking you are stealing. I guess there is no real clear cut answer for this one.

[Kurn]

There's nothing wrong with making a 3-4x raise with an 11x stack with the intention of getting action as long as you NEVER fold postflop. In other words, you know you're all-in even if they don't.

[Talking Poker]

I mostly skimmed this thread. A few quick thoughts:

1. I mostly agree with Brian. I do think shoving with 11 BBs is fine in this spot, but I too probably prefer to usually just open it normally (especially in a situation where it might look like you are stealing, like in late position).

2. I ALMOST agree with Kurn, but one of the few exceptions happens to be this exact flop - AKx. I'd fold QQ there and save my 8 BBs for a better spot (all in preflop, of course).

3. jdiana is a way bigger than I thought. Only put in 75% of your stack so you can fold after the flop??? Whoa.