When to just call ?

[JDMcNugent7]

I know and always hear that calling is the weakest play in poker and you rarely want to just call. I know in drawing situations many times it can be justified and is often even the right play when drawing. Also I know it can be good to just call when you are slowplaying and have some big aggression from opponents.
However, I was just watching some poker on TV the Full Tilt Poker thing with all pros, no ametuers, and they Just Call all the time. Much more often than I do. In many situation I would be re-raising or folding where they just call- and they arent drawing either or slowplaying, they Just Call with 2nd and 3rd pair all the time.

So is just calling really all that bad ?

[Zybomb]

There are situations when calling can be profitable....this may get a little lengthy just so you know. Times when you have a decently strong hand -- but it may be cheaper to simply call two bets (and get to showdown), than to raise the original bet and be forced to muck if more aggression is shown and not get to showdown.

Its all about keeping pots as small as you can when you arent sure if you have the best hand IMO....or at least avoiding making pots excessively large when you arent sure where your at. This is something I need to work on myself.

Example: You call a PFR short handed with Kd10d. The flop comes a rainbow K 4 Q. Both of you check the flop and a turn brings a Jack. He leads out with a 1/2 pot sized bet. Now to raise here to see where you're at , you'd need to at least triple his bet for your raise to have any effect.... lets throw numbers in.

Say, down to 4 handed in a tourny, you are playing 100/200 blinds and you have a stack of 4500, and your opponent has a similiar stack. His open is for 600, which you call from the BB putting 1300 in the pot. On the turn he bets 600....you opt to call, and then on the river he bets 1200, you call again. You used 1800 chips, and you got to showdown.

If you decide to raise the turn, you'd have to put in roughly 1800 chips --the same as the last time, but now you are faced with a reraise (in which youd probably have to muck) or the potential of him pushing hard on the river if you decide to check (or costing yourself more with a river bet)

It seems the better move would be to just call and find out where your at when the cards get flipped here... itd be cheaper, and youd get to showdown

I also dont mind calling in a circumstance like this. Say you call a PFR with 9s8s and the flop comes 10h 8d 4s. You can flat call a flop bet with mid pair, hoping to improve on the turn (2 pair, flush draw, straight draw), otherwise then raising the turn as a steal attempt... of course in short handed play, you can flat call a continuation bet bet, then steal once your opponent checks the turn as well.

[BlibbityBlabbity]

Also, with pros there is is some calling to set up a steal later in the hand. If you are faced with a big raise and you call it, what does that tell the other guy? If you were on the other side and the turn is a blank, do you fire again? If you do and get raised what do you think? If you do and get another call what do you think?

[obviously, these are rhetorical questions since as always... IT DEPENDS]

[eddo31]

another concept here is the way ahead/way behind theory.

when you arent really certain where you stand, but you know that you want to go to showdown, it is often best to check/call. betting out will often make someone with a lesser hand fold, and you will gain nothing, and it also exposes you to a raise which puts you in a tough spot. when you raise you are basically in the same situation, where you may not get called when you are ahead and can get raised when you are behind.

this is basically a tactic that allows you to go to showdown as cheaply as possible when you are not sure where you stand in the hand. i dont think that it should be used all that often, and you should never turn into a calling station, but this play does have its place.

[JDMcNugent7]

All makes good sense, thanks for the advice. I'm gonna look for situaitons tonight where calling would probably just be best and see if i can get a better hang of it. I think I'm probably too aggressive short handed but it seems to be working quite well so i dn.

[Talking Poker]

What game are you playing? Because that depends too. In short handed limit, I do VERY LITTLE calling preflop, very little on the flop, a bit more on the turn, and plenty on the river (it takes a pretty big hand to throw a raise in on the river).

NL is a completely different animal though, and I think that's what you were asking about.

[omahilo]

okay I have a different question...

This might sound weak on my part and this is apart of my game I want to improve.

Okay lets I have AT on the button (for sake of postion being key here)... It folds to me, I raise it up and get one caller.

The flop comes 2TJ and he checks to me and I check behind (or could fire a CB out) the turn brings a blank... he bets and I raise him, he calls... then on the river he checks and I check.

Is there a time when I want to raise on the turn IN ORDER to check it down on the river and get to showdown? obviously getting to showdown is easier when you have position.

Im wondering if this is a weak play or what...

Sometimes I like to raise the turn on a hand I think more times than not is ahead but I dont want to be bluffed out of the hand so I like to get to showdown.

What is your opinion on this?

PS: my example and explanation if this sounds vague but Im sure someone will understand what Im saying.

[Talking Poker]

I'm three tabling right now, so I'm gonna make this quick, but YES, I believe there IS a time when this is the case. I think a better example would be if you had pocket Ts though and the flop came Big-little-little (like K95).

Why? Because this way, if your turn bet turns into a check raise, it's easier to throw away. You probably only have 2 outs. With a hand like AT though, you might have 5, in which case maybe you hsould have taken the free card and hoped to improve.

Make sense? Like I said, quick explanation.... but yes, there definitely are times.

Oh, once again, I'm THINKING limit as I type this - not certain how well it applies to NL without more though, but I suspect the same.

[omahilo]

This is NL for me all the way... I dont play limit HE at all, tourney or cash game.

Also I like your example better. Im sure you will explain more, hopefully Zybomb also throws his opinion on this.

[Zybomb]

I think this relates sort of to my example I gave in the first response to this thread. Say 100/200 blinds again. This time we are the raiser (we'll say to 600) and have position. we'll use TPs example, we have 10 10 and the flop is K,9,3 (rainbow for sake). The problem here is the flop wouldnt go check check, Id CB this 95% of the time I think, so itd play out different... but assuming I did check behind him and the turn brings a blank and my opponent bets out 600 lets say, a normal raise would be to 1800.... or we could call and then probably be faced with a 1200 bet again on the river which we'd call....so we'd spend the same 1800..... in this situation I like a raise though. Bc you have position, the raise allows you to take down the pot right there, and even if you dont, if you are not reraised and just called, 95% of the time he'll check the river and you can check behind him or fire out.... so you'll probably get to showdown for the same price either way, but the raise here gives you a chance of takin it down then and there.......

If its the case I gave in my first response, I think just calling is the smarter move

And also typically in most situations on the river, Im raising only if Im very strong, or making a play.

[SirFWALGMan]

In your KT example, wouldnt you want to throw out a bet and see where you are? Try and take the pot down there?

[Zybomb]

On which street are you talking about?

[SirFWALGMan]

Example: You call a PFR short handed with Kd10d. The flop comes a rainbow K 4 Q. Both of you check the flop and a turn brings a Jack.

Would this not be a good time to take down the pot? Or at least get an idea of where you stand in the hand?

[Zybomb]

In this case we called the raise Out of Position.... so no I dont think betting is a good idea here. We flopped top pair with a ? kicker, but he was the preflop aggressor. If we check chances are he'll bet, then we can raise for info (or call for info). If we lead out, there is an above average chance this PFRer will raise our bet with any two cards if he is aggressive.... so betting here does nothing except further confuse us and cost us more money IMO.... true we may be ahead, but we also could be miles behind... and chances are leading out on this flop wont help clarify things

[SirFWALGMan]

Usually my move here (which is probably wrong) is to make a pot size bet. If I get re-raised, then ok, I fold. If I get cold called it becomes a tough decision. I see your point though.

[Zybomb]

what do others think?

[Talking Poker]

Regarding this example, I ALWAYS make the CB here. But I answered omahilo's question as he wrote it (the second bold part).