Poker Tracker Best and Worst Starting Hands...

[Talking Poker]

got me thinking.

For those of you who use Poker Tracker, let's post some interesting data. I don't care if you do it for one type of game, one limit, or everything combined - just specifiy when you post. Let's start with something simple in this thread, and if people like it, we can make more about other things (you know, like VPIP from different positions, aggression factor after the flop and so on - the possibilities are countless).

For this thread: What is your single best starting hand in terms of BBs won per hand? Since I'm sure that will be AA for most of us, more importantly, what is your worst starting hand? List your top and bottom 10.

For me, using a 43,000 hand sample size with limits of $5/10 and up only (all limit)...

Top 10 Hands:
AA - 2.47 BB/Hand
KK - 1.70
QQ - 1.57
AKs - 1.28
AQs - 1.17
JJ - .79
TT - .76
99 - .75
QTs - .71
AJs - .61

Bottom 10 Hands:
J5s - (.15) BB/Hand
Q7o - (.15)
97o - (.15)
42s - (.15)
T8o - (.16) <--- ironic, since I used to consider this my favorite hand
76o - (.16)
K3s - (.19)
JTo - (.21) <---- Whoa. Red flag.
97s - (.26)
A5s - (.34)

I find this very interesting.


Edit: I was only using Party numbers for whatever reason when I first posted. I'm updating my numbers now to have a larger sample size. This lowered them a bit, but put JJ into the top 10 list (it was noticeably missing the first time around).

[Zybomb]

Hmm interesting.....so question.....how big of a disadvantage am I putting on myself if I am not using PT or a system like it? Or rephrased how big of an advantage am I avoiding by not using it?

Exactly how much do you review the information and how much has it helped your game?

[Talking Poker]

I think it depends how much you use it. Honestly, I don't use mine as much as I could/should. It's got LOADS of features, with the best being (hands down) the Game Time feature. When I'm playing at Party, for example, I can have it auto-importing my hand histories and showing my opponents stats on the screen right there in front of me. When you are multi-tabling, it's nice to know if the guy who just raised you is a 72% VPIP maniac or a 9% VPIP rock, ya know? And this allows you to know exactly how he plays.

You can also import/export player notes full of stats for every person you have ever played with. I find these two features the most useful, but there are certainly a lot more than that, like what I posted above.

For the record, while I will get a kickback if you buy Poker Tracker through the links on this site (scroll down - see banner), I endorsed it long before they even had an affiliate program. I'm a big fan.

It comes with a 1000 hand free trial. Download it and see for yourself what you're missing.

[junYUN]

i really need to get off my ass and install this

[Talking Poker]

What, no responses yet? No one wants to share any numbers? I know a number of you guys are Poker Tracker users.... Come on, let's go!

[Reel Deal]

Where can you pick up Poker Tracker and what's the retail price? Thanks.

[BrianSwa]

go through TP's links, I think its around $50. Anyway I have it but still have no idea how to insert my last hands into it so it sits on my desktop doing nothing. Glad I didnt buy it.

[Talking Poker]

Scroll down. See the "Poker Tracker" banner? click on it and all your questions will be answered.

It comes with a free 1000 hand trial, and then is $55 to register. It's the best money you will ever spend on your poker education.

[Talking Poker]

Why don't you read the instructions (it comes with extensive help files) and follow them?

[PShabi]

If you play limit, and you don't have PT, you're a fucking idiot.

Don't be a fucking idiot.

I'll post some high/low hands tonight when I get home.

[BrianSwa]

because I dont know how to read....my dog reads me all the posts to me which is why im able to respond to you guys. Also dont know how to write luckily this cricket next to me was nice enough to type for me.

[junYUN]

where can i download some "rules" to define each player?

[Talking Poker]

I've been trying to ignore your nonsense lately, but sometimes I just can't help myself. WTF?

Can I get a show of hands from people who found this post funny (I assume it was an attempt at humor)? Come on now, speak up people.....

*Sound of Brian's cricket chirping*

Yeah. Anyway, back to the topic. Read the help files and follow the instructions. Or have your dog do it for you. Whatever.

[Talking Poker]

Here are the Bison Bison rules (for 10 handed games). These are great. Copy and paste this and save it as whatever you like. Then import it into your PT:


Autorate Rules Begin
Aggression:Y
ARI_2 0 Fishy (LP-P)
1 1 30.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is greater than 30.00
2 3 5.00 Pre-flop Raise % is less than 5.00
15 3 1.50 Aggression Factor - Total is less than 1.50
ARI_3 0 Good Player (TA-A)
1 3 20.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is less than 20.00
2 3 5.00 Pre-flop Raise % is less than 5.00
15 1 2.00 Aggression Factor - Total is greater than 2.00
ARI_4 0 sLP-A
1 5 20.00 30.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is between 20.00 and 30.00
2 3 5.00 Pre-flop Raise % is less than 5.00
15 1 1.50 Aggression Factor - Total is greater than 1.50
ARI_5 0 sLA-P
1 5 20.00 30.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is between 20.00 and 30.00
2 1 5.00 Pre-flop Raise % is greater than 5.00
15 3 1.50 Aggression Factor - Total is less than 1.50
ARI_6 0 (TA-P)
1 3 20.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is less than 20.00
2 1 5.00 Pre-flop Raise % is greater than 5.00
15 3 1.50 Aggression Factor - Total is less than 1.50
ARI_7 0 (sLA-A)
1 5 20.00 30.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is between 20.00 and 30.00
2 1 5.00 Pre-flop Raise % is greater than 5.00
15 1 1.50 Aggression Factor - Total is greater than 1.50
ARI_8 0 Gambler (LA-P)
1 1 30.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is greater than 30.00
2 1 5.00 Pre-flop Raise % is greater than 5.00
15 3 1.50 Aggression Factor - Total is less than 1.50
ARI_9 0 Rock (TP-P)
1 3 20.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is less than 20.00
2 3 5.00 Pre-flop Raise % is less than 5.00
15 3 1.50 Aggression Factor - Total is less than 1.50
ARI_10 0 Loose/Aggressive (LA-A)
1 1 30.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is greater than 30.00
2 3 5.00 Pre-flop Raise % is less than 5.00
15 1 1.50 Aggression Factor - Total is greater than 1.50
ARI_12 0 Calling Station (sLP-P)
1 5 20.00 30.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is between 20.00 and 30.00
2 3 5.00 Pre-flop Raise % is less than 5.00
15 3 1.50 Aggression Factor - Total is less than 1.50
ARI_13 0 Tight/Passive (TP-A)
1 3 30.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is less than 30.00
2 3 5.00 Pre-flop Raise % is less than 5.00
15 1 1.50 Aggression Factor - Total is greater than 1.50
ARI_14 0 Loose/Passive (LP-A)
1 1 30.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is greater than 30.00
2 3 5.00 Pre-flop Raise % is less than 5.00
15 1 1.50 Aggression Factor - Total is greater than 1.50
ARI_15 0 Tight/Aggressive (TA-N)
1 3 20.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is less than 20.00
2 3 5.00 Pre-flop Raise % is less than 5.00
15 5 1.00 2.00 Aggression Factor - Total is between 1.00 and 2.00
Autorate Rules End

[BrianSwa]

it was just a joke dude sorry if it got your panties in a knot, anyway thanks for the direction towards the help files. Still dont get it but not to worried about it.

[Aequitas58]

My stats would be skewed, I play NL. As of late, I have been playing more limit, but I don't have a good enough sample size right now.

Shabi?

Who else plays limit here (+ has/uses PT)???

[Talking Poker]

Posting NL numbers is ok too. I'm sure we'd still like to see them.

My numbers are skewed because they are 90% or more short handed.

[SirFWALGMan]

I just started my PT again. I NL I find my pocket pairs make me so much when I make a set they are top 10 usually.

Here are my stats:

BEST:
AA
QQ
66
JJ
Aks
ATs
A8s
87o
A4s
QJs

WORSE:
75s
88
AJs
KQs
A7s
T6s
86o
KTo
JTs
77

This is over 4000 hands and a mix of limit and NL. It does show 4000 hands shows a trend but not a statistical fact. I.E. Ajs is so bad because I lost 13 bucks tonight with it in NL. Fucking 89o calls, and calls my flop bet. WHAT THE FUCK! Idiot! Anyway, those are the stats.

[Talking Poker]

66 is your 3rd best hand and 77 is your worst. That alone tells me you don't have nearly enough hands to have a significant sample size.

[Kurn]

Ok. I'm going to be the fly in the ointment. I don't need data mining softeware to know the above info. And yes, if you play long enough and pay attention, you'll know that JTo is one of the biggest trap hands out there.

I played for years (mostly live) without pokertracker. Then after a couple of years of online play, I bought it. Here's my 2 biggest realizations.

1) regarding what hands to play or not to play, Pokertracker didn't tell me anything new.

2) regarding knowing my opponents - it hurt me. It made me think I knew things about opponents that were not true. Personally, I'd rather trust my notes or treat an opponent as an unknown rather than make decisions based on a sample size of 250 or fewer hands. I just don't play with the same set of opponents often at the levels I play to get a sample size that's big enough. Maybe above 30/60 that changes, so I'll keep an open mind.

I used Pokertracker for six months, then stopped. I don't miss it. However, I don't multi-table (occaisionally, I'll play 2 tables, but that's rare), so I can see it being a bit helpful on opponent reads if you play 4+ tables, but you're still going with statistically thin samples.

[Kurn]

I'm a fucking idiot.

I bought it, used it for 6 months, and stopped using it. I honestly found it close to useless. I believe it hurt my game.

[PShabi]

Interesting. Don't be a fucking idiot, Kurn.

Seriously, I've thought about it and I'd rather have a thin, statistical read on an oppoenent than no read whatsoever. Yeah, the sample size may be off, but I'll take what I can get.

If you are trying to use PT as a reference in borderline situations, or to make ever play, you're (general you, not "Kurn" you) a bigger fucking idiot.

What I like about it is I can easily identify the fish and get them seated on my right. 60%VPIP over 50 hands is enough to identify that he plays too many hands.

Also, it saves me a couple of orbits when i can identify that my table has went tight with changing players.

I still take notes, but for a 4-tabler on 3/6, I couldn't live w/o PT.

[Kurn]

Maybe I came across too strong. What happened with me was, after 6 months I asked myself "what do I know now that I didn't know then?" and I couldn't come up with a good enough answer to satisfy myself, and I thought the software was getting me too hung up with minutiae. I'm willing to concede your point on quickly getting a fix on the calling stations and maniacs when playing more than a couple of tables, but as I said, I rarely play as many as 2 tables (OK, I was 8-tabling during 'Stars' 2 billion hand lottery, but that was for a different reason )

My complaint is against people who post stuff like 'in the last 10K hands, I've noticed I'm +.35 bb for 54s, but -.23 bb for T9s. What's up with that.'

I'll tell them what's up with that. Normal variance gave them favorable boards a couple of extra times with the 54 and unfavorable board a couple of times with the T9.

Sort of like in baseball, where the difference between hitting .300 and .250 is one hit per week. Sometimes those grounders find the hole and those bloppers drop in, sometimes they don't, and sometimes you get hit with the wrong end of the bell curve.

Doesn't mean I'll never use Pokertracker again, maybe I just need a big downswing to motivate me.

[PShabi]

I hope I didn't come across to strong either. The first line in my last post was totally tongue-in-cheek. It doesn't read like that this time through though.

At one point, I was feeling the same way, that I was getting to caught up in minutiae. I've got a refined method of buddylisting and table/seat selection now and I think I've got a better handle on playing with the Gametime overlay.

I'm really trying to take notes more and trying to get as many reads as I can. For whatever reason, if I fire up a party table and I don't have a gametime overlay, I feel "naked." I'm just so used to it now, that I can't imagine playing without it.

Kind of like Tivo!

[Talking Poker]

Mmmmmmmmm, Tivo. The toy that changed my life

As for Poker Tracker, I'm in agreement with both of you. While I find the silly details interesting (see above), they don't affect how I play.... much. I won't say they don't at all though, because I am a bit mroe aware of some of my trouble hands now than I used to be.

When I fire up PT and GT+, I rarely even look at the numbers.... but I do on occasion. Maybe every 50 hands, I'll take a look around the table and check out the VPIPs mostly. I multi-table all the time, and PT helps me keep track of who has come and gone. I realize 50 hands isn't a significant sample size, but when one guy has a 78% VPIP and another has a 12% VPIP, that's telling you something right there. Yes, you could probably be aware of this without PT, but it's a lot easier using it when you are multi-tabling. I also find that while I can pick uut the maniacs at a given table easily, sometimes the tight players fly under my radar. It's like I forget about them because they aren't in many pots... PT helps me with that too.

I only use it at Party/Empire. And I never use it in tourneys. This ends up being just a fraction of the hands I play.... but like I've said, I still highly recommend it. ESPECIALLY for newer players that are still at the steep part of their learning curve. The only reason I would recommend PT for a guy like Kurn is because I'd like to see his numbers and compare them to my own to see if that helped identify any leaks...