[SnG Strategy] - Stealing and Blind Steals

[Aequitas58]

Here's the scenario:
A random $6+.50 SnG on Stars, 4-5 players left. Although "turbo," the usual rules apply, as 3 places are paid. We should assume, for the sake of argument, the SnG was initially filled w/ 3-5 fish, 2-3 competant players, and 1-2 good SnG players. (Hopefully, I'm one of the better players ... LOL.)

Obviously, we need to make blind steals. When we're down to 4-5 players, the blinds can easily be up to 75/150 (or more) so we have to find some way to build chips w/out showing down.

Chip Counts:
Of the remaining 5 players, the chip leader is sitting comfortably w/ 4-5k. The guy in second place is doing well, w/ ~3500. The remaining players (including yourself) are just about even. I find that this is a common situation... two people are ahead and three seem to be battling....

Specific Situation:
Sandwiched between the chip leader (BB) and the guy in second place (Button), I hold KJs in the SB.

Action:
Folded to the button, who bets 3.5x. Smells like a steal, right? Although KJs is not premium, I feel like it's strong in this spot. (DO YOU?) I reraise all-in. First of all, I want to raise (DON'T YOU?). Second, I can't raise anything substantial b/c of my stack. Doubling the raise is more than half my stack, so I pushed. I don't know if this was bad or not.

BB folds, Button insta-calls, flipping QQ.

I'm out.

What general criteria do you use to pop someone back? Keep in mind the situation ... everyone is stealing! (At least it seems...) So, was this a terrible move w/ KJ?

[Quint]

I've been playing (almost) nothing but SnG's for the last 3 months (UB 5.50s). What I've seen in when it gets down to the position you were in is that most people that put in a standard (3x or bigger) raise PF are semi-bluffing or they have a legit hand. That is they hope to take the pot right there, but they will call any all in. I've seen it from the two chip leaders down to the the two lowest stacks. Therefore I usually don't try to steal into a raised pot. However, with less than 10 BB I'd push K J, but I fully expect to be facing A X, or a pair.

[Aequitas58]

So, you like the reraise w/ KJs, then?

[Quint]

Assuming everyone started w/ 1000 chips (I think that's how Stars work) & the BB has 4000 and the button has 3500, that means the rest of you have less than 1000 each.

I agree with you that your only options here are push or fold. The button raise tells me he has any A, or a pocket pair. The only person he's afraid of right now is the BB. Any other player he can go all in against and come out as the chip leader or still solidly in second with a healthy stack. The other two short stacks are getting ready to face the blinds.

If you're playing to finish ITM (most likely 3rd) then fold and hope the other two short stacks make a mistake facing the blinds.

If you're playing for a better than 3rd finish, or bust, you gotta push and pray.

I've played it both ways and I can't fault either. In your situation with the egg roll where any positive gain is a good one I probably fold.

[BlibbityBlabbity]

You didn't give the specific blinds for the hands (but you said they would be at 75/150 at that pointin another spot, so well go with that)...

You are "about even", so 1000-1200 somewhere in there?

You 75 blind
BB 150 Blind
Button 450 total?

675 in the pot

you raise to say 1100 total

thats 1775 in the pot with the chip leader (BB) to call 950 and the SB to call 650 to stay in the hand.

IMO, there is a good chance the BB will not have a good enough hand to stay in with a raise and reraise (especially since he has to worry about the 2nd place guy, who could really put a dent in his lead).

BUT, the Button (unless you felt he would steal with ANYTHING) probably had something...low suited connector, Ax, etc. so, he is getting 2.5:1 to call (while only risking 1/3 - 1/4 of his stack.

I don't dislike the play, but I think it was likely to assume it would NOT steal the blinds, and you would be called by the button unless they had a crap hand. I agree, you were in a fold, all-in (,maybe call?) situation...there was no raise other than all-in that made sense.

If the Button didn't have you covered 3+ x, this would be a MUCH stronger play, IMO, since they would be less likely to call all THEIR chips with some of those drawing hands that might have been worth it for the bigger stack.

[Talking Poker]

As has been said, you're almost always going to get called here. I think KJ is a fine hand to push in with when you are the FIRST one in a pot at this stage of a tourney, but I do NOT think it is an ok hand to push with after a raise, evem if it "looks" like a steal. The only way you get him to fold here is if he was raising with complete junk, which he probably wasn't. Even with 67s, he's probably going to call you because of the pot odds he's getting.

If you want to make your stand and hope to double up, go for it, but I would much rather wait for an unopened pot so I can be the FIRST one to push in, and for ALL my chips (giving the potential caller significantly worse pot odds than this situation yielded).

[Aequitas58]

Thanks for your replies.

From the feedback I'm gathering (here and 2+2) this wasn't a great play. See, the problem I had was that: (1) I felt like this was a steal, and (2) at a minimum, I was calling... so, if I'm going to call - why not raise? It could have possibly gotten him off the hand.

To answer Blibbity's Q:
I thikn the blinds were 100/200/25. I'm not sure exactly. They were high. I was approx 3rd in chips, but 4th and 5th were close behind.

I have 6Max on the brain. Couple that with the fact that I haven't been playing too many SnGs, and here I am re-raising a big stack w/ KJs. LOL.

If anyone else has anything to add, feel free... but I think everything was covered. Good job.

[Windbreaker]

If this was a normal SNG, I would generally fold all the time. With the SNG at Stars, I know I can outplay at least half the field. Meaning, I don't feel like it's necessary to put my money in on a best case scenerio of a pure blind steal. The only hands you can really beat right now is a blind steal, K10s, QJ, and Q10. I don't really see someone raising 3x BB with those types of hands...unless they have done it consistently during the course of the SNG.

I know a lot of players don't like to have less than 5-7 BB, but most of the time you can wait even longer and just outlast everyone that gets desperate.

[PShabi]

For the record,

If it's folded to me on the button, I'm stealing with those hands you mentioned EVERYTIME.

[Talking Poker]

Maybe so, but you're also raising there with premium hands.

[Zybomb]

IMO, I fold here

There is a better than average chance that he is just stealing, however its going to cost you all of your chips to find out.

In addition you (assuming no domination) are at best a 60/40 favorite -- and you will almost definately be called with anything outside of a pure trash -- and there always lies the chance he actually has a legit hand (which in this case he did)

When down to this situation, I really like the First In Rule -- being the first in the pot is more important than your cards. I think once the blinds are this high, you stand to make a lot more money by simply blind stealing (as people will be reluctant to call w/o huge hands -- and chances are you wont run into one of them that often -- , especially when you can still severly damage their stack/take them out) then by taking a chance at a double up here, where you are at best 60/40.

This may be a little tight, but Id fold everything below AQ, or anything lower than 99 in that spot, assuming I still had a stack that was capable of playing, if I needed to double up and take chances Id call with slightly more -- but I still like being the first one in, that way you have two ways to win, take down the blinds/antes or have your hand hold up -- here you only have one

Being the first in Id throw in a steal with hands as weak as mid 1 gap suited connectors, high connectors, any pair, Axs, two paint cards, and half the time with two rags. If I can net one set of blinds per orbit thats the goal in my stacks situation -- and hopefully somewhere along the line find a monster when someone tries it on me.

[badblood44]

Excellent point and one that has proven successful for me as well. Sometimes, I'll even fold to a limp from a big-stack, especially w/KJ. For stealing blinds, I want to be first in all the time.

Also, in the case where there are 2 big stacks, it's a bit easier to pick on the 2nd biggest stack. I realize you weren't in position to do this since the big stack was to your left.

My rationale is that the big stack often times will call your steal attempts since he may have enough chips to warrant a call if he's a bit loose. The second place chip leader will be more hesitant because while he's not currently in 1st, I can guarantee you he's focused on making the money.

2nd place chip position is less likely to risk any his chips on a call unless he has a monster since he feels he can probably wait for 1 or 2 shorter stacks to bust out and get into the money.

[Aequitas58]

Good analysis people.

In the situation above, what would be the first hand that you reraise with?

Any pocket pair?
AJo?
KQs?

[Windbreaker]

If I think I can move in and have a player fold at least 80% of the time - assuming the bb also folds, I would reraise with any two cards.

In your situation, that was highly unlikely due to the pot odds you'll be laying him. If I'm expecting a call in that situation, I want to expect to be a 2:1 or better favorite the majority of the time. Which means I would never call with king high.

So in your situation, I would probably go all in with AA-TT, AKs, and AQs. It still depends on the blind levels the number of players to the money and the chip stacks of everyone.

[Aequitas58]

You wouldn't go all-in w/ AKo? If not, I think you're playing way too tight. OR, I'm completely missing something.

Anyone else?

[Windbreaker]

opps...forgot about that hand...but I wouldn't reraise all in with anything else but maybe 99. You're not at a point where you have to make a move....but I'm more patient than others.

[Aequitas58]

Yea I know what you mean ... keep in mind, this is a Turbo SnG.

[Zybomb]

AA-10 10 (maybe 99) AK,AQ I reraise all in

everything else I fold

[humpty99]

I think everyone is correct in saying that being first in is ideal, but in this circumstance it is kind of difficult to do. I play these things all the time (not turbo, but SNG), and someone is raising every single pot by this point. So really, the only time you can move is left of BB, and then you have to worry about 4 other people and there is always someone who THINKS they have a great hand. Reraising with KJ is in a definate gray area in this spot, but you have to also take into consideration that you may not see anything better in a more promising situation. You may have a more suitable situation, but horrible cards, and still not enough to really make anyone fold. One or two more rounds of blinds, and your dead without luck anyways. Not saying it is a good or bad play (i am kind of on the fence), but definately may be the only chance you have at that point. Also, just a side note..... I have played a FEW turbos, and people raise with just about anything, especially if they are the big stack and folded to on the button.