Strategy question: Following preflop aggression with postflop aggession

[PShabi]

I use this strategy in both NL and limit games. Mainly I play 2/4 and I wanted to get some feed back about my strategy.

Scenario:

I am in 7th position with A 10 suited in a full 2/4 ring game. The action is folded around to me with no limpers. I raise here, to try to close out the rest of the field. My goal is to either steal the blinds or at worst, buy the button and play with postion.

So let's say I buy the button, and both blinds are in against me.

Now the flop comes 2 6 9 rainbow and the blinds check to me. I ALWAYS bet in this case, trying to take it down right there.

However, where I need advice is if one or two players call. Let's say the SB folds, but the BB calls my flop bet.

Now he checks on the turn again. WHAT DO YOU GUYS DO IN THIS SITUATION? I check here 95% of the time, and try to catch on the river. Do you guys ever continue with a bet here when you don't hit?

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The other situation I need help with is if in the same scenario, you fail to close the field out and get a caller behind you for two bets.

He has position, the flop is a rainbow of blanks. Do you bet out on the flop if it is checked to you with someone behind you?

I used to play it the same way, regardless if I had the button or not, but when someone behind me calls, I am at a serious disadvantage.

Thanks for reading and I can't wait to here some expert responses.

Phil

[eddo31]

i think your actions have to be drastically different depending upon if you bought the button or not. with a player behind you, and having completely missed the flop, you have to be a bit more cautious. i think you have to check it here, and wait to see what happens behind you. it is probably a check-fold, unless you have a backdoor flush/straight draw to go along with your overcards. then you might think about calling to see what the turn brings.

if you did buy the button, then i think you should stay agressive when the other opponents are passive. i think you should bet the turn again in this situation. if you dont bet, then you invite the blind to steal from you on the river. if you do throw the bet out there, you have a number of options left.
1. you can win the pot right there.
2. you can improve on the river and win.
3. you can miss and check the pot down.
4. you can miss, and still fire out at the pot, trying to win on a bluff.
i think keeping the agression going on the turn will help you win the pot more often than not, and that even if you dont win that pot, it creates a good table image for you.

[PShabi]

This is strategy I've been thinking to going to. I've already made the change to what you suggest when someone is behind me, but currently in situation 2, I check the turn and feel like people are stealing from the big Blind on the river. I'd like to hear what everyone else says but I'm going to go with that strat tomorrow.

[eddo31]

obviously other people might have other ideas here about how to play this situation, but i think that by not betting the turn you just ask the bb to steal from you. the bigger bet on the turn might be enough to get the bb to lay down middle or bottom pair, which is defintely good for you.

i think also having more options on the river definitely helps you out. i would be interested in hearing what higher limit players (TP) say about this though.

[Talking Poker]

Good thread.

It's late, and I have a plane to catch in the morning, so I can't respond now.... but I will tell you that this is VERY similar to the subject for an article I plan on writing soon. There are a few things I'd like to explore in detail... things that I think could help the average player's LIMIT game a lot. They aren't common sense at first, but once you understand them and see the light, you'll be surprised at how many more bets you'll win... and I see players NOT doing these things all the time.

The biggest one is "The check and call." This is when you are first to act with one opponent and have a medium to good hand after the river card is dealt. Don't bet! Check to your opponent. I'll go into more detail on this someday, but just wanted to mention it now so you can start thinking about it.

The second situation is pretty much what was described above, but more specifically, what you should do if you have a medium pair, for example - say 88 and the flop comes Q75. I believe you need to bet the turn every time. I didn't used to, until I gave it more thought, and now it's clear to me. Bet it. Is this the same for your AT hand above? Not quite, because the free card is more useful in that situation (there are only two 8s left in the other scenario, so you're not likely to improve).

Again, I'll go into more detail when I have the time.... I'll be itnerested in seeing others responses here too.

[PShabi]

Not getting too many bites here. TP, you gotta elaborate more! What a cliffhanger! Why do you suggest this check and call play? Hoping to hear back soon on that one.

[BlibbityBlabbity]

Not sure if this is what TP means, but if you have a good hand (same 2nd pair, top kicker). If you would put one bet in to see if your hand is best, but don't want to be put in the situation where you throw out a bet and are raised, then check with the intention of calling.

TP's example said you were out of position, so say the flop came KJ2 rainbow, and you hold AJ. You were only up against 1 player so you bet the flop, and to continue to be aggressive and bet the turn (discussed earlier). Other player has just been calling along the whole way. Do you want to bet out here (even assuming no draws could have hit) to find that he has been letting you bet KKK, JJJ, 222, xxx, xxx, KJKJ, etc, etc. If he hit a set on the flop, and the board wasn't threatening to a straight or a flush, he might gladly do this and then you have put yourself in a position to pay him 2 bets on the river.

Also assume you didn't improve, what about that player who called your preflop raise with K9 and is calling along with TP ok kicker. Again you pay them off twice.

Not sure if this is what TP was getting at, but I see this a lot at low limits.

[Talking Poker]

It's simple. Once you understand it and start to see it in action, I know you will agree it is the single best piece of limit advice someone has given you, and you won't believe you didn't think of this yourself.

Remember, you are heads up on the river and you are the first to act. Say you have top pair with a decent kicker or something like that - not the nuts, but something you're definitely not going to fold either. Let's look at your choices and what can happen:

Ok, I started typing up the varius scenarios, and it started looking too confusing. It's not, so I'll just try to type it out.

Basically, there's no reason for you to bet here. If you bet and he has a great hand, he's going to raise, and you're going to lose two bets instead of one (had you checked and then called).

If he has a bad hand (like if he missed a draw) and you bet - he's going to fold. So you're not going to win any more by betting than by checking. As a bonus, by checking, you get to see his cards and learn something about him.

Ok, now here is the key to this whole thing and what makes this play so great. A lot of times, when you check, he will bet here, regardless of what he has! Second pair, a missed draw, it doesn't matter. If he senses any weakness, he's going to bet (bluff) here, and you're going to call and win an extra bet!

Get it?

Yes, there are times when he will check a good hand behind you that is worse than yours (you could have won another bet by betting), but those are greatly outweighed by how many extra bets you will win (and save) from the above scenarios.

I hope I explained this ok. It's a thing of beauty, is it not?

[Talking Poker]

P.S. I realize this is a fairly basic concept, and many of you probably do this al the time (I do), but I remember how fantastic I thought this was once I figured it out and wished I had learned it sooner. I believe betting the river with a medium strength hand is one of the biggest mistakes newer players make. I see it happen all the time.

This goes for being second to act too. I explained it above with you in early position, but it's pretty much the same thing if you are last to act. If he checks to you, unless you have a monster, just check. Most of the time, if you bet, he's only going to call (or raise!) with a hand better than yours. If he has a bad hand (like a missed draw), he's gong to fold and you don't win any more anyway.

And yes, of course you should value bet here if your opponent is a major calling station and is likely to call you with 3rd or 4th pair. Everything in poker is situational... I'm just talking generally, against your average opponent or someone you know nothing about.

[Talking Poker]

This is some good stuff here, people! Surely someone has something to say!

I know - it's Christmas Eve. I'm on my way out right now, in fact...

[PShabi]

Yeah TP, I have been using that play as of late. I remember when it "came to me" at that moment like you describe. Great peice of advice.

I still haven't heard many opinions on my more important, regular occuring, dilemma.

Today, I raise with AK, get a raggedy flop and bet the flop, only to have the BB call me. He checks the turn, I bet, which I hadn't been doing, he calls.

Now, he checks the flop, and I bet again, with no pair, becaue I will lose if I check it down. He calls.

I'm beaten with K3, the 3 was the low pair on the flop.

I'm starting to feel like the checking it down if my flop bet doesn't take the pot is a better play. Players are 2/4 are going to call you down with low pair and an overcard.

Lost 4 bets and if a King hits, I'm in even more trouble.

I truly have no idea what to do in this situation.

I'm just going to go with feel and vary my play to meet the situation/player/feel of the game, etc.

[Kidd7138]

How often do you play aggressively in a situation like this holding just two overcards? Could it be that you try to make a play like this too much? Sometimes you just have to lay down the high cards when nothing hits.

[PShabi]

That was the whole discussion of the thread from the beginning. This strat was suggested to me and I tried it today. It would be easier if you read through the first couple of posts.

Nutshell: Raise pre flop by me with say AK, close out the field and I've got the blinds. Blanks fall, they check I bet out to try and win, get called by one.

They check turn, what do I do?

Usually, I check, they bet river, I fold, lose.

Gotta better idea?

My tone isn't jerky, just in a hurry, responses appreciated