Do some make it too hard, or do I over simplify?

Penguinfan · #1 07-09-06, 09:03 AM

This post may get too long, so sorry for that, but I THINK it may go in a decent direction. I was reading a thread at another forum (gasp) about SNG play. I'll try and just post the jist of it instead of going E=MC2 like they did.

My main question is simply becasue the answer seemed very obvious to me, and maybe thats why I am a very average player, but maybe I am not taking the actual true theory of the game serious enough. This may be the case since I can't be as unlucky as I think I am, I must be doing something wrong.

To give you a reference point, I am currently up $2378 for the year to date playing mostly small buy-n SNG's, some MTT's and a bit of PLO8.

OK, the conversation in question was about 4-handed play in a higher buy-in SNG when the UTG player (6000) who is in second place with two small stacks at the table gets dealt KK. Blinds at 100/200 with the two smaller stacks folding here (they have 1200 each), Hero had raised to 1000 and the big stack (11000) pushes all in.

The thread took a direction in which a lot of math was discussed about what place he would finish in X number of times based on each action and thus putting a value on each action. The final outcome was that folding here was as valuable as calling the all-in since he would bust out often enough without guaranteeing a first place finish when he wins the hand, this considering he already has second locked up for the most part.

Another way of looking at that hard to read statement is the value of improving by playing and winning the hand was not enough to justify getting the bubble since a second place finish was just as likely either way.

I'm gonna be real honest, non of the above has ever entered my though when I was in that spot, I auto call every single time without giving it another thought.

Are they making this much harder than it needs to be, or is this part of the game I am missing and thus the leak I am looking for?

omahilo · #2 07-09-06, 09:35 AM

If this was a satelite to the WSOP ME or Sunday big tourney and the top 2 spots got a seat then I would seriously consider folding this hand because your almost guaranteed a seat and dont need to get in a huge clash with the big stack with 2 stacks all but out.

But since this is a regular SNG with just money on the line, I would make this call everytime like you and live with the results.

sjay2k · #3 07-09-06, 10:36 AM

Call obviously.

However, these sort of theoretical-monster-laydown questions are just so annoying though.

There are so many other important aspects of SNGs. Especially for low limit online players.

Penguinfan · #4 07-09-06, 11:18 AM

To clarify, I am calling here every time without thinking about it. My question is am I missing out on an important aspect of the game by NOT THINKING like they do?

I guess I am wondering, since when I bust out it is usually with the better hand as the chips go in, am I too willing to go broke in the wrong situations even with the better hand?

sjay2k · #5 07-09-06, 11:28 AM

At low limits, no.

Talking Poker · #6 07-09-06, 09:25 PM

I disagree... I think you should ALWAYS think about the situation... if nothing else, it's a good habit to get into.

I imagine I make this call 95% of the time, but you should always give thought to the situation, and they are making very valid points here.

johnp158 · #7 07-10-06, 12:34 AM

What the hell?

Just because you're playing low limits doesn't mean that you ignore math. The situation you're talking about sounds a little different, but I was reading a hand discussion the other day where they were on the bubble of a SNG, and when all the math had been run, it was pretty much commonly accepted that folding KK in that situation was the right play. SNGs are just about the most mechanical form of NL poker there is. It's taking a lot of practice for me to really figure out these situations, and I don't spend nearly as much time with SNGPT (SNG Power tools) as I should, trying to determine EV for pushing and calling in all kinds of situations.

The point is, yes, there is a lot that you miss but just making automatic moves with hands like that in critical situations.

sjay, I respect your posts, but I'm pretty surprised that you're so quick to just say, "It's low limit poker, it's simple."

Boobie Lover · #8 07-10-06, 02:00 AM

I would probably load up SNG power tools and then put this exact situation in there and then begrudgingly fold.

EDIT: Um, nevermind. This is a call even in SNG Power Tools. QQ+ should be the calling range. If both small stacks were 200, and you knew the big chip stack had a fairly tight range of pushing, then it would be a fold. Here, this is horrible fold.

johnp158 · #9 07-10-06, 01:27 PM

Right. The situation that was being discussed that I talked about included somebody else already having called the allin with a smaller stack.

Penguinfan · #10 07-10-06, 02:02 PM

That is a whole different scenario in my opinion. The VERY LAST thing you want to happen is to lose the big side pot to the chip leader only to see the small stack triple up on the small main pot while you head to the rail saying "I could have just folded"

Interestly I think if there was an all-in and a caller the only hand the big stack could (or should) push with is AA simply because he shouldn't want to see the samll stack stay alive and double you up to the chip lead, and he really shouldn't care if you take the 1200 chips off the small stack.