Congratulations Sox!

[eddo31]

i dont think that it was really cashman that built the system. he came in after newman built up the system. they really have dried up in the minors, with their most recent good player coming up in 2000 (soriano).

steinbrenner clearly makes a number of moves based solely on emotion. some of those moves work out ok (signing sheffield in the offseason, instead of making a run at guerrero, which is essentially a push performance wise, but guerrero cost much more). of course signing guys like jeter to 20 mil a year deals, and giambi, kevin brown, etc. is what has killed the yanks. i am not sure that they have some number that they have to stay under, but i would not be surprised at all if they go way over the 200 mil mark next season.

[junYUN]

i would HARDLY call the red sox farm system one of the best in the game, in fact it's somewhere in the middle of the pack at best.

[GeoffM]

Actually, I think the Yankees and Red Sox have the best farm systems of all-time. What better than to have somewhere around 20 other teams groom players, and then have them play for them. The Yankees use MLB as a farm system for their team, as do the Red Sox. Who needs to develop players when someone will do it for you .

[junYUN]

haha, great point.

[Chutups]

LOL, I completely agree. But I think it's catching up to the yanks they can only pick up free agents now, because they have no prospects to trade and the players they do have to trade are payed way too much.

[jimmytheg]

Exactly. There is only so much out there on the free agent market every year. And they can't get em all. They cant get better through trades.

It adds up to a team of high priced talent, that isnt really a team. Paper champions. I bet most yankee fans wish they still had guys like scott brosius and paul o'neil and tino martinez. These guys weren't superstars like giambi and arod and sheffield, but they played balls-out, and were team first guys. Same goes for Wells and Pettite over Brown and Vasquez.

This new Yankees team is just a bunch of paper champions, and the only way for them to improve is to go out and sign more high priced alleged superstars.

The Red Sox dynasty is upon us

[eddo31]

i dont think that the yankees can even be called paper chamnpions, since they havent won anything since 2000, when they had all of the old players still.

even with the ability for an enormous payroll, i think that you have to build a team through the traditional player development system. i am not sure that you can build a great team only through trades and free agent signings.

[jimmytheg]

paper champions was a phrase coined by some athlete, describing another team that on paper looks like the best, but doesnt come through in the end.

these yankees are a bunch of overpriced primadonnas. no heart at all. and i totally agree that you can throw all the money in the world at that problem, and it won't fix it

[GeoffM]

Ya, but you know what guys, just because they don't make prime time prospects, doesn't mean they spend more. Jeter was a farm product, and he makes close to $20 million a year now. I think they have simply diverted much funds out of player development in the minors and put it right towards their major league roster.

As guys leave, guys will come in. Lieber, gone, Quantrill, gone. They are cutting salaries yearly from unnecessary players and adding each year.

They will make a big move again next year. This is I believe the most profitable MLB team, despite carrying that massive payroll, so perhaps that justifies their payroll.

[jimmytheg]

[quote=GeoffM]Ya, but you know what guys, just because they don't make prime time prospects, doesn't mean they spend more. Jeter was a farm product, and he makes close to $20 million a year now. I think they have simply diverted much funds out of player development in the minors and put it right towards their major league roster.

QUOTE]

And that's a short term answer to a long term problem. These aren't just interchangeable parts like in a machine, they're ballplayers. The Mets have tried that approach for years and they have one world series loss to show for it. You throw all these high priced supposed stars together and expect them to become a team? It just doesnt work. And they do spend more by always going the free agency route, because they are forced to shell out the highest price for the guys they bring in. yes, jeter was a farm product who they had to pay top dollar, but he's not worth 20 mil, and they only gave him that much because he is the "heart" of the yankees

[GeoffM]

The Yankees have no long term problems. As long as Steinbrenner is in charge of the well, it will not dry up. I would not consider division champions of the last 8 years as long term problems. And their only short-term problems are not winning the whole enchilada the last few years, but as long as they make it every year, they will win their share.

[jimmytheg]

Of course they do. They didnt win their championships by just going out and signing the highest priced guys on the market. They built a team with a couple superstars and a bunch of team first guys who played hard. During their title run, guys like Brosius would hit the game winning home run, or tino martinez. They emphaized pitching, and had the best bullpen in the game.

Now, they have one front line starter in Mussina, an aging Rivera who the Sox got too twice in the playoffs, and really nobody else. Their cant just go out and sign everybody, and they have no talent in the wings to fill in holes.

And they havent made the series every year, twice in 4 years, and in 2003 they wouldnt have made it if not for the Pedro debacle in Game 7.

The problem isn't having money, they will always have money.. the problem is decision making....think about what has beaten them the last 4 years....pitching, and clutch team hitting, things that the Yankees used to do. The Mets have a ton of money too, but they dont use it wisely. Nor did the Orioles for a long time, or the Dodgers.

To say they have no long term problems is just wrong. Too much money on not enough players, coupled with no farm system to fill in holes, and a mindset from the front office that all they need to do is throw money at the problem....is a problem.

[GeoffM]

Well, I'll pretty much guarantee they win the division again next year, and they will definately bolster their pitching staff. Not much you can do when you lose your 1-2 in Clemens and Pettitte, and there was little pitching on the market besides them last year. This year they will be able to get a guy like Johnson and possibly Pedro. That ought'a straighten their pitching out.

Rivera is aging but is still magnificent. Top to bottom they have the most stacked lineup in baseball, and adding pitching, they would be scary.

Lets not forget they were 3 outs from making the series. And 1 game in total. They ran into a slump when they absolutely could not. Their only glaring weak spot is at 2nd base, and the prototype 2nd baseman does not cost a lot to obtain. Jeff Kent perhaps? I think adding a couple of lefties in the bullpen wouldn't hurt either.

Lets have this argument when they aren't posting the highest profits in baseball, and when they actually have to start developing a better farm system. Until then, they can throw the money around all they want because they are consistently in the BIG season and that is the only way to win a championship, is to make it there.

[jimmytheg]

I'm not sure what you mean by big season. And you can't know for a fact that they have the highest profits in baseball because MLB doesn't release those numbers.

Glaring weaknesses include 2nd base, 1st base, center field, their entire bullpen except for Rivera, a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th starter.

And if they do intend to get Randy, they will need to part with at least Posada, which makes catcher a glaring weakness. But I don't think they will get Randy, and definately not Pedro.

You say they were only 3 outs away from the series this year, but the sox were only 5 outs away with a 4 run lead last year....and in 1986 the sox were 1 strike away from winning the series. Doesn't mean anything till you finish the game.

Yeah, they lost Clemens and petite, but there was pitching on the market, hence the sox getting schilling. and brown and vasquez, who ended up bombing but were expected to be horses.

Their lineup is great 1-4, but there's a big dropoff afterwards. In fact, from 1-9, the Sox have a better lineup, and had one last year. The Sox were the top offense in the league last year. The Sox were better than the Yanks in every single category except for home runs...that includes hits, runs, 2b,3b,rbi, batting average, obp,slugging, and ops.

If the Nomar trade had happened earlier in the year, this sox team would have run away with the division. I beg to differ with your guarantee the Yankees will win the division next year.

[GeoffM]

1st base, is Giambi not coming back next year?

CF? While not the players they once were, Lofton and Williams are nobody to wave sticks at either.

The D-Backs won't demand Posada in a trade. There is no sense in them paying Johnson so much when they suck. I think they will realize that finally and the Yankees can throw cash their way, something they need.

The Yankees made somewhere around $80 million last year, and so I assume no other team makes more. I'm sure their merchandise sells more than any other team, and they have their own TV station to air games. Add the fact they sell out all the time, and year-in, year-out are playing home playoff dates when the players aren't paid, that's all profit.

I guess we'll find out soon what happens. But they will win their division, they will simply buy what's missing like they do every year. I hate them, don't get me wrong, but I also have to respect the fact that they will continue to buy their teams and top teams until baseball comes up with a more strict salary system, something hockey is looking to do now.

[jimmytheg]

The Dbacks have more qualified suitors for johnson, like the cardinals and the angels. And according to Peter Gammons, they are demanding Posada as a base for any possible trade from the yankees.

Giambi is not even close to the player he once was...the old steroids rumor might have a part in that. Williams hit .262 last year, and isnt getting any younger. Lofton hit .275 in a half-years worth of at-bats...and also isnt getting any younger.

The players do get a playoff share, and it is a fixed percentage of all postseason revenue. I;m not sure where this 80 million profit number comes from, please elaborate. And the Red Sox also sell out every game, own their own cable station, and have a smaller payroll than the Yankees while selling just as much merchandise.

The Yankees can throw all the money in the world out there, but if they continue to make bad decisions, it wont matter.

[GeoffM]

Their payroll was $153 million in 2003.

"The Yankees pulled in $223 million in revenue last season--almost double the league average--even after paying $29 million into the revenue-sharing scheme." (from Forbes magazine)

So they made $70 mill, but I was close.

[Kidd7138]

The Yankees will not get Johnson this year. The D-Backs, a rebuilding team looking to dump payroll, does not want overpaid veterans on the wrong side of 30. They can easily get much, much better value in a Johnson trade with the Dodgers or Angels, both have Major League ready stud prospects, the Yankees simply have no one AT ALL in their system.

While not having any farm system won't hurt them now, it will start to catch up to them in the future. The Red Sox, Angels, and Dodgers are 3 teams that can support a huge payroll, not Yankees huge but they could probably all go over $100 mil. Factor in the fact that they all have good farm systems and you see trouble for the Yankees. In a few years all three of these teams could easily have a core of 3-4 young star players making league minimum or close to it. That's a nucleus of players making under $5 mil easily. That gives the team's management over $100 million to sign a supporting cast with. Imagine what else the Sox could've done this year if Cabrera, Lowe, and Nixon were all making $500,000 instead of $5 mil+.

[junYUN]

i'm sorry but the yankees will not drop off. one year of giambi plagued by injuries, parasites, and all of a sudden he's a glaring weakness? giambi will be back next year hitting long balls as usual, and the yankees will pick up at least one more starter. sure they have weaknesses, but they also have the craziest owner in baseball who is willing to do whatever it takes. there's also talk of a kevin brown for andrew jones swap (with the yankees paying for most of browns salary) which would give the yankees an absolutely devastating lineup, and the best center fielder in the game. brian cashman is a very smart guy, he will figure something out.

oh and i'm not a yankees fan

go cubs :]

[jimmytheg]

Jones hit .300 once, in 2000, but every other year he has never hit above .275. He hit 7th in a weak braves lineup this year. That's the same as Bernie Williams. And if they do make the deal and get rid of Brown, that is yet another starting pitcher they need to acquire. There's only so much pitching out there. As it stands now, they only have Mussina and Vasquez, (I'm assuming El Duque isnt coming back) The old Yankees won with dominant pitching and clutch hitting.

Giambi has to be a big question mark...diesregarding all steroid rumors, the guy hit .250 in 2003 before the injuries. He did hit 40 homers that year, but about half the league did too. Even Cashman has said that Giambi's status is uncertain for next year.

I agree that Cashman is a great GM, but Steinbrenner has the ultimate final say, and he's been using it more and more these past couple years.
While I hate to say this, I would trade Pedro in a second if it meant the Sox got Pavano and Radke for just a little more money. Pedro is on the downswing on his career, and I wouldnt mind at all seeing the Yankees over pay him for too many years if we got those two other guys.

Just remember, while Steinbrenner was the owner, the Yankees were terrible from the end of the 70's until 1995. All his money doesnt always translate into great teams. And when the Yankees did become great again, it wasn't because they spent more money than anyone else, it was because they developed great pitching and had clutch team players. Guys like Tino, and Oneil and Brosious and even Joe Giradi....guys like David Wells and pre-big contract Andy Petite and David Cone....these guys werent superstars, but they all were clutch. Not Brown and Vasquez and Giambi and Contreras (another hugely overpaid supposed superstar who amounted to a pile of crap).

[GeoffM]

Thanks for the support.

Trust me people, as much as I'd love to eat my own words, the Yankees will again be the favorite next year after yet another busy off-season, and again they will be the team we all love to hate.

As for that Jones for Brown deal, I think Atlanta must be on drugs or something. What happened to them keeping payroll low for now? Now they are going to trade one of their bright younger stars for a pitcher who I believe will be ineffective next year.

[jimmytheg]

brown only has one year left on his contract, while jones has a long term deal, and the yankees would foot the majority of brown's salary for next year as part of the deal. Hence the Braves reason for doing the deal.

And let's not forget, that at the beginning of last season, the Red Sox were the Vegas favorites to win the division...just like they were at the beginning of the playoff series this year, and as I imagine they will before next year when everything is said and done

[GeoffM]

With the Yankees already having a glut of CFs, I don't see them acquiring Jones when they could just as well go out and get Beltran and keep Brown, even though Brown as I said is on the twilight years. He is still better than what they have.

[eddo31]

as much as i am a sox fan, i do believe that the yankees will be the favoerite every single year. their money advantage, even over the sox, is so staggering that it is almost insurmountable on a long term mbasis. you can beat them in any given year, but in th elong run they will come out on top.

steinbrenner is really their only weakness. he makes a few too many impulsive moves that tie up a lot of money, and they also lock in inferior players because of the money they make.

i think they will go out and get a good starting pitcher (pavano or radke, mort likely), and make a deal with a big time outfielder. the only reason that they will trade brown is because they dont like his attitude, other than that he did a very good job for them this season, and they need help with their pitching staff.

many of the players that they have on the team are overrated at this stage of their careers. of course, that is what happens when the majority of the free agent signings that you make are of veteran players. i think that all of the small pieces of evidence around giambi suggest that steroids make have played a huge role in his game (weight loss, tumors, significantly worse performance since testing began, etc), and i dont think the he will ever be the same player that he once was.

[junYUN]

are you fucking kidding me? are you seriously saying andruw jones is equal to bernie williams? everything you say about baseball has just be negated. andruw jones is THE BEST center fielder in the game bar none, and whether or not you want to believe it, saving a run or two is the same as knocking in a run or two. yeah i would hate to have a gold glove center fielder who hits 35 homers and drives in 100+ runs.

half the league hit 40 homers? give me a break. there were exactly TEN players in the entire major leagues in 2003 that hit 40 homers, giambi hitting 41. if being in the top ten of homers in the ML isn't a big deal, tell me what is.

yes you're right steinbrenner has had the final say the last couple years, and what has it produced? well lets take the last four years for example:

2001 - 95 wins, division title, 13.5 games up on 2nd place sox
2002 - 103 wins, division title, 10.5 games up on 2nd place sox
2003 - 101 wins, division title, 6 games up on 2nd place sox
2004 - 101 wins, division title, 3 games up on 2nd place sox

see a trend here? just because the yankees aren't raking in the world series titles does by no means discount the dominant force they always are in the regular season.