Winners or Losers???

[BlibbityBlabbity]

OOOO, OOOO, I know, I know.....

[Talking Poker]

My hand is raised - you know it is.

And yeah, let's compare stats next week sometime and see what we can learn...

[junYUN]

hand is up... i have definitely learned some "wise-owl" tricks from him in terms of the statistical and analytical side of poker

[GeoffM]

My hand is raised. Even though I don't play much hold'em I still read his posts.

[badblood44]

I'm not all that surprised. Even though poker is gaining popularity by the second, those who are willing and able to look at their own game and improve are still outnumbed by the donkeys. Joining and posting thoughts to a poker forum would seem to indicate rational thought and a willingness to learn - thus you have a higher than normal percentage of winning players.

Just MHO.

[junYUN]

i agree...i'd probably say most of us are at least servicable players... probably mostly break-even players trying to get over that hump. im +$1,200 so far in 2005... but most of that was made in the last 2 months... i was in the red in march.

[Talking Poker]

Absolutely... good point and "duh" on my part.

[2Tone]

I keep good, detailed stats about deposits and withdrawals, so when I say I'm in the black for well over $500 I'm able to do so with confidence. But what I'm not doing is breaking out bonus dollars, $10 party surveys, $50 transfer from TP for posting here, etc. vs. actual table wins, which is kind of cheating I suppose.

PT (which I’m still not using, with no justifiable excuse) would force me to do this. How does it handle bonus $? Are those calculated into your hourly/hand rate?

[Scamp]

Hi. Long time lurker, first time poster.

I've only been playing for about 8 months and never kept any records. I figured that I'd only deposited once and while I had more than that $100 then I was ahead. Recently, however, I was curious to know how much of my winnings were from my mad skillz and how much came from bonuses. I was pleased that not all my profit was from bonuses but disappointed to discover that from a play perspective, Party is killing me (even though I'm well in the black there). Need to fix that as it's a blemish on my otherwise respectable spreadsheet.

[GeoffM]

I honestly wouldn't even bother determining which money is from what, the bottom line is bonus money is still increasing your roll.

[PShabi]

I was pretty sure I was beat, just not positive. Pot was too big too not call down.



Texas Hold'em $3-$6 (real money), #994,973,746
Table Palmdale, 16 Jun 2005 8:25 PM ET



Seat 2: Tombennn ($77 in chips)
Seat 3: mr.lucky0 ($190 in chips)
Seat 8: elephantman6 ($1,046.50 in chips)
Seat 9: _BoomBap_ ($173.50 in chips)
Seat 10: arthurdaly ($293 in chips)



ANTES/BLINDS
elephantman6 posts blind ($1.50), _BoomBap_ posts blind ($3).

PRE-FLOP
arthurdaly calls $3, Tombennn folds, mr.lucky0 calls $3, elephantman6 bets $4.50, _BoomBap_ bets $6, arthurdaly folds, mr.lucky0 calls $6, elephantman6 bets $6, _BoomBap_ calls $3, mr.lucky0 calls $3.

FLOP [board cards 5C,2H,8C ]
elephantman6 bets $3, _BoomBap_ bets $6, mr.lucky0 calls $6, elephantman6 bets $6, _BoomBap_ calls $3, mr.lucky0 is all-in (disconnected).

TURN [board cards 5C,2H,8C,2D ]
elephantman6 bets $6, _BoomBap_ calls $6.

RIVER [board cards 5C,2H,8C,2D,6C ]
elephantman6 bets $6, _BoomBap_ calls $6.

SHOWDOWN
elephantman6 shows [ QH,QC ]
_BoomBap_ shows [ QS,QD ]
mr.lucky0 mucks cards [ AH,6H ]
elephantman6 wins $15, _BoomBap_ wins $15, elephantman6 wins $27.50, _BoomBap_ wins $27.50.



SUMMARY
Dealer: mr.lucky0
Pot: $87, (including rake: $2)
Tombennn, loses $0
mr.lucky0, loses $18
elephantman6, bets $33, collects $42.50, net $9.50
_BoomBap_, bets $33, collects $42.50, net $9.50
arthurdaly, loses $3

[Talking Poker]

Hey Scamp... Thanks for finally posting. We've got lots of lurkers around here that I wish would turn into active posters. Welcome!

As for your question, I don't believe PT handles bonuses at all. It is unaware of them.

[GeoffM]

If you're keeping a spreadsheet, just have a seperate one for bonuses and deduct it from your roll to determine your poker skill.

Oh, and welcome aboard, stick around a while will ya !

[Scamp]

Thanks for having me! While I doubt that I'll be as active as a lot of the posters here, I figure that I won't improve as much as I'd like to without at least asking some questions.

For the record the PT question was actually from 2Tone.

Well it's not so much a spreadsheet as modified TiddlyWiki page, but yeah, I have a separate bonus column, just so I know.

Edited to include reply to GeoffM

[Zybomb]

Off topic, but speaking of winning.....I just had about a 30 minute poker session playing at the 3/6 NL tables (I now vary between 2/4 and 3/6) before the table broke up and I decided to make it a short and very sweet night and head to bed. My stats

During current Hold'em session you were dealt 21 hands and saw flop:
- 2 out of 3 times while in big blind (66%)
- 1 out of 3 times while in small blind (33%)
- 3 out of 15 times in other positions (20%)
- a total of 6 out of 21 (28%)
Pots won at showdown - 4 of 4 (100%)
Pots won without showdown - 2

Literally a perfect session, every single hand I didn't fold preflop I won with (never had a PFR of mine not have a caller)

Came out +$925

-Semi bluffed a 381 dollar pot with a flush draw on the turn.
-Had KK vs QQ (player was all in) 216 dollar pot
-AK vs AJ, player hit J (TP) on flop and called my continuation bet, king came on turn and called me putting him all in $434 pot
- called a PFR with 67s (4 total people in the flop) flops 668. guy with A8s bets, I raise he pushes i call.....$695
Plus two small pots, a $12 SB/BB where I bet he folded, and a $57 hand which I showed down 2 pairs aces and tens and won with 109 (A,A,3,10,7)

MAN.....on fiiiiiiiiiiiiiire

[Kurn]

From an old PT database (back when I did use it) at 3/6. I folded on the river 42% of the time, 64% of the time I went to showdown I won.

The sample size was 9500 hands and my win rate was 6.14 BB/100.

Note: This is why I always say the long run is a lot longer than you think. Obviously I was running very well. I don't believe this win rate is ever sustainable over the long run. I know it wasn't for me.

[Talking Poker]

Wow. Hell of a session!

[Talking Poker]

Good point. 6 BB/100 is pretty sick.

At a glance, I would say you were folding a bit too much on the river.

[robthedlphin]

I'm glad someone is. I sat at Party this morning for 2 1/2 hours, saw 6 flops, won 2.

With me it seems I'm getting nothing but AA, AK, or 72, 83

[Kurn]

I would agree.

[SirFWALGMan]

What about weak good hands. If I have AK and the flop is an A, and I am raising, and someone is re-raising me, do I:

A) Assume I am beat and just fold even though I have a premium hand.
B) Assume I am possibly beat and check-call down hoping to catch a K or A?
C) Do you bet the river with this hand? If you have the best hand, you are likely to have someone fold. If you are beat, then you are likely to get check-raised. So is it better to check through on the river, assuming the guy is in the hand still because he has something, and he will only call-raise when you are probably beat?

What do you do? What do you do?

[Kurn]

The situation you describe is very opponent-specific. An aggressive player will play Ax (where x=anything) like that against a preflop raiser in the assumption that because they now know that 2 A's are already out, it makes it more likely the preflop raiser holds KK-99, KQ, KJs, than a bigger ace.

Out of position, if I bet the flop and am raised, I'll three bet with the intention of following through on the turn (unless my opponent is LP or TP in which case I'd call the flop and check-fold the turn if unimproved).

In position, if opponent bets and 3-bets my raise, the choices are more varied based upon my opinion of the opponent and my perception of my table image as well as the texture of the board. Too many permutations to cover in a general answer.

It's usually not a good idea to get in the habit of folding to one more bet on the flop after you've shown strength. Even at lower limits, that will be noticed by a couple of opponents.

To answer C: In position that depends on the texture of the board and what the action was like on the turn. Out of position, if there were obvious draws on the flop that didn't hit, checking on the river might induce a bluff from a busted draw.

You bet the river heads up when you believe that you will have the best hand 55% of the times you are called.

Hands that fit your scenario would be good hands to post. It's easier to examine strategy when looking at specific situations.

[Zybomb]

well since I wrote about my good session how about my bad one

1st hand at the table when i sit down theres is PFR by a late position player, I called with AK from the BB as does the SB. Flop comes AK5. the SB and I check, the PFR bets rather large, I raise he pushes I reluctantly call hoping hes making some dumb move with AQ or trying to bully since he was the original raiser -- no its what I figured it would be 55.

Rebuy , about 20 min later make a raise with QQ have two callers. Flop comes Q,10,9. I bet, someone raises, I push he calls....yup KJ...nope board doesnt pair.

Ok maybe I should of layed the AK down and maybe my push was a little aggressive..... you know what thats how I win many hands too, so what can you do.

-$811

[Talking Poker]

I think NOT getting all your chips in with either of those hands would be a mistake. The number of times you get paid off in those exact situations greatly outweighs the number of times you run into that monster hand that beats you and you don't improve your hand (you had 4 outs twice on the AK hand and 7+10 outs on the QQ).

That's poker, as they say.

[Zybomb]

Yea you're right....I definately have no regrets about the Queens, I may not of needed to push so hard, but regardless by the end all of the chips would of ended up in the middle, nothing much you can do there.

With the AK, my thinking was this though. Nothing but 55 makes sense for him to push with. Any pair is scared of the A and K, and would he really push AQ or AJ that hard? Assuming AA and KK are out due to the low chance of all 4 A's or K's being out, I think what my best chance was he was putting me on a bluff raise of an apparent continuation bet and had a decent but not great hand -- or I saw what I kind of expected to see... 55

Which brings up a point Im now thinking about. Not talking about this instance, but in general, In a cash game, How do you react to an opponents showing of strength when u hit ur AK (we'll say just TPTK not even 2 pair here). Ok you make your raise preflop (or call a raise preflop), then you hit your TPTK. You bet out assuming u were the raiser, or check raise assuming you were the caller and you're raised/reraised,,,,with no unusual read on the player, this is one situation I have not been able to grasp.

Tournament Id reraise preflop with AK 75% of the time, in a cash game however Id say its as low as 20%.... and the way I play becomes very different......

any input about these situations and ways of dealing with them?

Edit: (Im thinking I should of maybe started a new thread so more people will check it out, and because its gotten way off the original topic.....oh well)