BlackJack @ PartyPoker - Page 2

Reel Deal · #26 02-01-06, 06:32 PM

LMAO!

X-Longshot-X · #27 02-01-06, 06:43 PM

Bottom line. Why would the casino (or in this case the pokerroom) offer it if they were not getting some sort of advantage on it....

PShabi · #28 02-01-06, 07:21 PM

My god, my head hurts.

I'm just going to "ditto" every post made to Ejit in this thread.

But Ejit,

"Not losing" implies "winning money" which is, by definition, "beating the game."

Robbr25 · #29 02-01-06, 07:24 PM

I received $50 from intertops.com to use in their casino.
I turned it into $120 playing blackjack then transfered it to my pokerstars account.
Where I promptly lost it

But as a general rule, I avoid the casino online.
(can't say the same about Vegas and AC though)

Dodoubled · #30 02-01-06, 07:25 PM

I've played Party BlackJack, too. Not much, but just enough to get a feel for it. And enough to drop about 20 bucks.

Anyhow, some thoughts.
1.) It is possible to get +EV in blackjack, but there are a ton of factors that go into it. Playing perfect basic strategy is only the beginning. Deck size, the true count (the proportion of 10-cards and aces to the number of 2s through 6s, divided by the number of decks in the shoe) all factor into it. Even the best players (read, "counters") are only looking for an advantage of +1 percent or so -- and even that might be generous.
2.) That said, the biggest advantage an online blackjack game has over you is the inability for you to count anything whatsoever because we don't know the randomness with which the cards are shuffled. Does the computer use a single deck, a four-deck shoe, a six-deck shoe or an eight-deck shoe? Or, does the computer shuffle every single time, nullifying any semblance of a true count? My bet is on the latter.
Remember, this isn't like poker, where a single deck is shuffled before each hand. A player's advantage in blackjack banks on what has been played, and more importantly, what hasn't.

PShabi · #31 02-01-06, 07:47 PM

You've played party blackjack and don't even know how many decks they use? The house edge has to be pretty great there.

Anyway, Party has an 8 deck shoe that is reshuffled EVERY HAND. You cannot count. There is no way to make Party Poker blackjack even close to breakeven.

Dodoubled · #32 02-01-06, 08:17 PM

Thanks, Pshabi.
I figured it had to be around an eight-deck shoe, but I never saw any written documentation about it. Then again, I never actually sought any written documentation on it, so I'll trust you.
As for the reshuffling bit, you're right ... that's why it's impossible to get any real advantage over the computer dealer. That's why online poker is so vastly, vastly superior.

MAYHEM45 · #33 02-01-06, 09:21 PM

All this being said, there is actually a way to beat online blackjack.

It's called casino whoring, and its one of the ways I helped build my under 100$ bankroll. Basically it puts an edge in the players hands using a bonus to eat up the -EV.

PShabi · #34 02-01-06, 09:28 PM

Yep. Quite popular and quite profitable.

Hawt · #35 02-01-06, 09:49 PM

I have been contemplating doing this since Mayhem showed it to me. Perhaps I will hold off in depositing into Bodog to get the PokerTracker bonus and try this out to build up a bit. I can't really afford to lose my deposit though.

Talking Poker · #36 02-01-06, 10:26 PM

Thank you.

As for the others who think there is such a thing as a beatable casino game (without cheating), I'm sorry, but I'm laughing at you.

Not only that, but I would be glad to deal BJ to you all day long, every day.

Windbreaker · #37 02-02-06, 12:32 PM

Online BJ with bonuses is +EV, if you get the right game, learn the basic strategy, and quit after clearing the bonuses. Having said that....probably half the people here wouldn't have the discipline to do all three...lol

MathBabe · #38 02-02-06, 03:20 PM

I know I'm only adding my voice to a bunch of others, and it won't convince anybody that isn't already convinced.

But the ONLY casino game where the house doesn't have an edge is poker. With poker the rake is how the house makes money, and you can see it coming out of the hand and how much they make. With ALL OTHER GAMES, including Blackjack, the house wins more money than the players do, and that is how they make their money.

You may do better than the other players at your table consistently, but DO NOT make the mistake of thinking you are beating the house. YOU ARE NOT.

MathBabe

Talking Poker · #39 02-02-06, 03:30 PM

And this is precisely why I don't consider poker to be a "casino game," wven though it can be played in a casino. With poker, the house is basically charging you for the right to play there... but you are not competing with the house (like in all the "casino games") - your competition is in fact the other players. If you are better than them, you can win (in the long run). But it's impossible to be better than the house in any casino game, obviously (at least it should be obvious).

Boobie Lover · #40 02-02-06, 04:19 PM

Actually, there are some video poker machines that are slightly beatable, but most people play them so poorly that the casinos still have them.

MathBabe · #41 02-02-06, 04:24 PM

Yes, you're absolutely right, I shouldn't have referred to it that way.

Poker is more like a game where the casino rents out the table and the use of the dealer, cards, and chips. Like you say, it's under their roof, but not one of their games.

So what's this thread doing under General POKER Discussion, anyway?

rookette22 · #42 02-02-06, 04:42 PM

My bad. I started this thread in here...

But...PartyPoker is a POKER site isn't it?

Hence the Poker related thread.

JDMcNugent7 · #43 02-02-06, 04:44 PM

I'm sure the casino still makes a killing off poker - its not like they are breaking even like ur kind of suggesting. If theres a rake at all - we are all being set up to lose - its just that poker is alot easier to find and maximize ur edges in(if ur good), than a game like blackjack is. It's still def. one of "their games".

Talking Poker · #44 02-02-06, 05:06 PM

Well, of course they are making money off of pokwer - no one suggested they weren't. They are taking money from every single pot (or an hourly rate at the higher limits), and they can not lose any more, ever. So yeah, of course they are making money.

But that's looking at it from the casino side, and unless any of us plan on opening a casino sometime soon, that doesn't really matter to us. We should be looking at these games from the player side. Any game where you are playing against the house is -EV. Period. Only if you are playing against other players and NOT the house (like poker) can you possibly find yourself in a +EV situation.

Zybomb · #45 02-02-06, 05:07 PM

I 100% disagree with this. The other players CAN and DO effect your performance at the blackjack table. Before I sit down in a casino BJ table, I will always observe for 5 minutes and look at the players...

6 players at the table

10 9
8 7
J K
8 Q
4 8
5 9

Dealer shows a 6

players 1-4 stay. Player five takes a hit and receives a K thus busting
Player 6 shakes his head and stays as well

The dealer flips over J 6 for sixteen, then hits with a 4 beating the entire table except for player 3 which is a push

Player 5 took the dealers bust card by hitting at a time when they shouldn't have, thus effected MY MONEY

It can work the other way around, when a player does NOT hit when they are supposed to

SirFWALGMan · #46 02-02-06, 05:17 PM

So if you lose 1% over time and you have fun is it really -EV? heh. I do NOT play BJ online but I find it fun to sit down and play some hands at a casino. I know I am going to lose but so what. It's just money. It is a fun game. It can be exciting when your on a roll. I say Fun = +EV.

SirFWALGMan · #47 02-02-06, 05:20 PM

But then is it a good move when the card is a 4, and the next card is the ten? I suppose if everyone at the table took a hit it might effect the outcome somewhat by removing more good-bad cards from the deck, but the probability that the guy taking a card is going to effect the hand one way or the other seem to be just superstitious. Like the old guy blackjack dealers always winning, and the young kid ones being beatable.

Zybomb · #48 02-02-06, 05:25 PM

Sure in the 1 time if the card was a 4 and the next a ten, it would of worked out correctly.... but in the long run, it's more likely you are going to take a bust card from him, than take a non bust card from him, thus it makes the hit -EV for the ENTIRE table.... this idiot just cost everyone their bet.....

rookette22 · #49 02-02-06, 05:28 PM

ZYYYYYYY?

I can't believe it zy........

You ..............

actually...........agreed...........with me???

That's a first!

I've actually seen it happen way too many times, that's why I mentioned it. And you gave the 'purrfect' example zy. Me0owww....

Talking Poker · #50 02-02-06, 05:31 PM

Dude. You're a smart guy. Please tell me you didn't just post this.

Yes, in the short run, players can make "bad plays" that negatively affect YOU, but that are EQUALLY likely to make the same exact bad play and SAVE you. I know you know this.

In other words, using your example, say Player 5 hits and gets a 5. Player 6 stays. Now the dealer flips over J6 and instead of making 21 like they would have, they pull a King and bust and everyone wins. That "bad play" just made everyone at the table money, but no one ever thanks that guy for it - they only get mad when he hurts them.

Not only that, but the entie deck is now throw off one card (the extra card that he took), so the entire next hand is completely different than it would have been, so thinking about "bad player" making "bad plays" in the long term is completely pointless - because everything would be different.

The point is, the cards are shuffled, and the odds of the next card being whatever (a good or bad card for the dealer, for example) are exactly the same.

If you want to play the "would have" game, that's fine - but you have to do it for both the times when the bad play costs you money AND the times when it makes you money. And those will of course even out, so it's pointless to even consider them.

The cards in a Black Jack shoe are randomly distributed. Playing with good or bad players do not affect your win rate. And by "win rate," I of course mean "lose rate," since you will lose in the long run. Period.