Continuous Shuffle - Online poker RNGs...

[Zybomb]

THIS is my elaboration

YUCK

[Boobie Lover]

You people that hate this probably also get mad at people in blackjack that play suboptimally and take your cards when they shouldn't have. If that is the case, you are all geniuses.

[Zybomb]

lol... yes... yes i do (I do realize longrun it makes no difference yes)

[de-coder]

That isn't exactly what Howard said. What he said was that the remaining cards are shuffled during the action. Obviously that could mean the cards are continuously shuffled, but he didn't actually say that they are, the cards could simply be shuffled once during the action to prepare for the next card.

[ChipFish]

This is hands down the funniest thread EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MAYHEM45]

Yeah right up there with eejits blackjack system.

[drewjax]

I dont get all you morons who say this isnt a big deal. Of course it is. If this is all true, then.....

When I fold a pp or a suited ace to a donk raise, and the flop comes with what "would" have been a set or nut flush, I cant "justify" losing my bloody mind, ranting and raving, and "rightfully" thinking I am jinxed.

[ChipFish]

Since NOONE has control over the outcome. It doesn't matter.
Since everyone lacks the knowledge to "influence" the outcome, the outcome can NOT be influenced, so it is random.

So as I said before Funniest thread EVER!!!!

[Talking Poker]

Not at all. The same number of times that person "takes my card" and it hurts me, they also "take my card" and it helps me. Plsu, it changes the entire order of the deck, so the next hand is different and so on and so forth.

I've never understood the people you are referring to (the ones who get upset), but I conceed that this is a reasonable analogy.

I think what you aren't getting is that *I* don't want to be responsible for my immediate, short term luck. I'd rather it be predetermined (by immediate, short term luck, yes - but at least with a pre-shuffled, fixed deck, it's out of my control).

[Talking Poker]

Exactly.

And yes, I understand that it's still random and all that... but the point is, when people post hands , for example (the first one that comes to mind), it's actually meaningless. Had RD not taken a bathroom break there and raised preflop, maybe he would have gotten it all in on a completely different harmless looking flop of T55 nd maybe a Jack would have come on the river too, just for kicks. So MAYBE, his seemingly ill-timed bathroom break saved him from being eliminated from the tourney with the Kiss of Death.

The point is, we don't know, and knowing that a continuous shuffle exists, we can no longer - ever - speculate about what might have been had we played a particular hand differently.

If that doesn't bother you, great for you. But hopefully you can see how it could bother some people.

[Talking Poker]

It's ok that you don't understand what we are talking about here, Chip.

Really.

[GTDawg]

RD could've tripped and fallen trying to get back to the computer after his bathroom break and hit his head on the corner of his computer desk and killed himself.

You're going to have an aneurysm what if'ing yourself to death.

[Talking Poker]

Yes, that is all well and good.

The simple point here that very few people seem to be getting is that for the thousands of times that people in this forum have said/thought, "Oh, I would have made my flush" or "I would have flopped a set" AND just as many times that people have said, "Whew - good thing I folded, because I would have gone broke here" or not thought anything at all because the result was insignificant in their mind......... well, that's all crap. You can't do it, because there is no such thing as a fixed deck.

Yes, it's still random. And no, no one can influence the action any more than anyone else. But the fact remains that online poker sites (at least Full Tilt) us a continuous shuffle, and that changes how we look at the game.

[Talking Poker]

What I find especially strange is that you won't play on Full Tilt, because you run bad there. I know you're joking when you say it, but how many times have you said Full Tilt is rigged on this forum? Half a dozen?

Here's one for you:


Joking or not, you don't play there because you think you run bad there.

[Robbie Robb]

I'm one of the worst for saying things along those lines. Then I gave my head a shake and realize that I made the right decision folding. After all, the goal is to decision oriented and not results oriented.

But yeah, it's one of those things that just...are. There's nothing really that can be done to improve the system.

Great, thanks Mark, now everytime I click on a button I'm gonna be thinking "should I have waited a tenth of a second longer?"

[Reel Deal]

Listen to GT... anyone worrying about this is going to eventually book a one-way ticket to the nut house.

[melioris]

You are communicating effectively to me and I have understood what you are saying throughout this thread. I am not trying to break you down, as you know by my PM on this topic.

What you have explained is totally illogical and irrational thinking. The inescapable truth is that any person who is aware that thinking this way is irrational and still allows such thoughts to enter his/her head is indulging himself/herself in feebleminded thinking. If a person does not recognize that it is irrational thinking, or can but still can’t let it go, it is a sign of underlying personality issues and not an issue with the RNG.

Granted this is all just my opinion, but I feel quite strongly that there is not another reasonable explanation. I am happy if anyone can provide one that is rational and logical.

[omahilo]

we should do some type of experiment...

like if we call instantly with a flush draw vs waiting 5-10 seconds then call with a flush draw and see how often each one gets there.

maybe just maybe we are missing something here...

[Zybomb]

You beat me to my responses every time thus far in this thread

It seems a lot of ppl r missing the point here

[Zybomb]

Now if THIS were the case (it's not) THEN i would be irate!

[Reel Deal]

I guess I'm in that boat because to me random is random is random... whether I have a small hand in it or not, it's still random. The odds will work themselves out over the long term so that with a large enough sample size a tangible shuffled deck will produce the same results as an electronic RNG used at an on-line poker site.

[GTDawg]

You say it's not the case...so then it doesn't matter how you play your hand. So, why are we discussing this?

[Zybomb]

I am (and Im sure TP also is) not by any means saying that this system isn't random. Nor am I saying that over the long term it will not even out, nor am I saying that it wont produce the same results as a normal deck given a large enough sample size.

What I am saying is exactly what TP said... that although the long run is uneffected, and the short term luck is still the same (since I can not control it)... I dont like the idea that I influence (be it blindly) my short term results based on how long I take to act. Id rather it be influenced (by short term luck yes) by something I dont have any "control" (I put it " " for a reason ) of.

Will this stop me from playing online poker? No of course not. Am I saying it's unfair... no of course not. I just dislike it. I would rather have it work like an actual deck, be randomly "shuffled" and then have a predetermined order. Just like in a live game, I wouldnt like it if the deck was constantly shuffled while there was action going on during the flop then recut and a turn was placed, then shuffled again while the turn was going on and then cut and the river was deal. Would the randomness be the same? Absolutely. Would I like it? No.

[GTDawg]

Why do you say you have any control over it? You don't have control over it. Nobody has control over it.

If you had control over it, people would have websites designed to calculate how long you should wait before clicking call to better maximize profit.

It doesn't matter when you click the call button because it's random. It's random if you had clicked it a second earlier. It's random if you clicked it a second later.

Random is random. There is no degree of randomness. And, any difference in randomness based on when you clicked the call button is silly talk.

I throw a die on the ground. One of six possibilities equally likely to occur.

I wait two seconds and throw a die on the ground. One of six possibilities equally likely to occur.

Whether I held the die with the one facing up or shook my hand is inconsequential for the odds of an event occuring.

Like has been said above, if this bothers you...you're what if'ing yourself to death and it's a health hazard.

=======================

I think there is a difference between wanting it more like a live game and feeling that you affect the random drawing of cards by when you click the call button.

[Boobie Lover]

Yeah I'm joking about Full Tilt being rigged (although I would be up a lot this year if I didn't play there). I just think Stars is FAR superior to FT in so many regards (support, software, games, cashing out).