stop n go?

[thrash1294]

Is this a correct explaination of a stop n go?

You have JJ and your opponent has AK.

Method #1: You're 1st to act after the blinds and raise it up. AK re-raises, you push all-in, AK calls.

The "Stop 'n' Go" Method: You're 1st to act after the blinds and raise it up. AK re-raises it, and you JUST CALL with the intention of pushing all-in instantly post flop.

And now for the reasoning...

Ok, so with method #1 (which I know a lot of people would go for) the positive side of the play is that you could win more from the hand as long as AK doesn't hit either of his cards. Against you is that fact that he has five cards to come and there's nothing you can do but sit, watch, and cross your fingers.

With the "Stop 'n' Go" what you're doing is taking advantage of the fact that (as we all sadly know) most of the time you don't connect with the flop. The good news is that you don't have to, because you're already holding JJ. By pushing all-in post flop, you're now forcing the AK player to have had to hit one of the three cards in the flop to continue, rather than guaranteeing him all five cards a la method #1. Ask most people how good they feel about AK with a full board still due to come... and then ask them how good they feel if they only had two cards to come.

When the flop arrives and doesn't contain his A or K, you push all-in and the blood drains from AK's face. You potentially aren't winning as many chips if you get AK to dump now, but you have an additional way to win besides praying the board is kind (i.e. your new-found fold equity).

If an ace or king do arrive on the flop, c'est la vie - curse the poker gods. The only difference is that with method #1 you would now be all-in anyway, helplessly watching these cards fall. In our second scenario, you now have the opportunity to get away with a chip and a chair...

[eejit101]

kinda, Zybomb explains the stopnGo well, as does TP, ill let them do it, but your kind of right.

[melioris]

I think of a stop and go as move when you are OOP against a bet/raise. Instead of reraising (usually a push-this is kind of a stack depend move), you call with the intention of pushing on the next street no matter the card that falls since you will be first to act. You may have more fold equity with a stop and go vs a reraise, especially if the card that comes is a scare card.

The situation you describe seems more like not wanting to get into a potential coinflip with JJ than a stop and go.

[Aequitas58]

Lost is coming on, so I don't have time to explain a stop and go, but in this case, you don't know your opponent has AK until after the fact. Most likely with JJ, I'm getting all the money in pre-flop if I'm short. If he calls and flips AK, then you're racing. If he hits an A or K, it was close enough to 50/50 - not a big deal.

[Zybomb]

This is probably faulty thinking, and is exposing you to more races than is necessary. AK (or AQ KQ) is a virtual flip against JJ with 5 cards to come... but with 3 cards, JJ is a solid favorite.

By using a Stop N Go you are winning pots you may have otherwise lost. Sure if someone opens with A8 lets say, you are letting them hit their Ace by just calling... but often times they will call your push anyway.

The key to a stop n go is that you must have a stack to the point where IF you reraise, it's going to be all in, YET you also have enough to make an opponent fold on the flop... however often this amount which is enough to force an opponent who missed the flop to fold, is NOT enough to force the opponent who opened to fold.

[Zybomb]

The answer has pretty much been covered, but I'll reiterate. This is cut and pasted from my e-book, which I've begun self-editing (since apparantly TP is not going to ), which I plan on having available in the next month or so...so if you'd like more, you know where to get it.

The Stop and Go Technique

The Stop and Go technique is a very effective technique to use WHEN THE SITUATION CALLS FOR IT. We’ll use a tournament setting, blinds are 1000/2000 and you have 16,000 in your stack. Say you are in the small blind with a hand like JJ. A tighter player makes a raise from LP to 6000… you see your jacks, like the pot size and you are ready to risk it here… if he has AA-QQ then congrats, if you are in a race hopefully you win… otherwise even better you take down the pot uncontested. You move all in, your opponent asks how much more, and when he finds out it’s only 10,000 more he decides to call. He flips over AQ and winds up rivering an Ace to knock you out of the tournament…you chalk it up to bad luck and hope to win the next race.

This player failed to use the Stop and Go technique in this instance… if he had, there is a good chance HE WOULD OF WON THIS POT. Using this technique, is when he would of JUST CALLED the raise of 6000. Then once the flop hits, being first to act, MOVE ALL IN NO MATTER WHAT. If he had done this, and the flop comes 8d 7h Kc, there’s is a good possibility that our opponent would FOLD his Ace Queen, since the flop missed him and all he has is ace high…thus he wouldn’t be around to catch his river Ace In essence, you are giving your opponent only 3 cards to catch his overcards, rather than 5… so it is no longer a coin flip – the odds are swayed in your favor

This technique can also be used with big cards. Let’s take the same situation, only this time, we are the ones holding AQs in the SB and are faced with the same 6000 chip raise. We could raise 10,000 more, all-in, and wind up losing a race to TT when nothing hits for us…OR we could use this technique. In this case, we’d again just call the raise of 6000. Then once the flop comes move all in no matter what. The flop came 8d 7h Kc. Maybe our opponent with TT is now concerned that we hit our king, and he thinks he is drawing to a 2 outer, and makes a fold. He certainly isn’t folding to our reraise preflop though. Using this technique with big cards, it lets your opponent see 3 potential ‘scare cards’ if he is holding a pair… which may get him to lay down his hand.

The obvious downside to this play, is that if your opponent made the initial raise with a medium holding (say Queen Ten), you are letting him see a flop in which he can hit his Queen and then knock you out. For another 10,000 he MAY lay down this hand if you had pushed preflop, but in general, most hands which opened will call your push here.

To use this technique you must be OUT of position. The reason being, if you are in position, and the preflop raiser, being the first to act, makes a continuation bet, he often will commit himself to the hand, thus you accomplished absolutely nothing.

Although this is a technique that you will use when you are short stacked, you must have a large enough stack that your all in bet on the flop can get your opponent to fold… if not, it’s pointless. If you call a 6000 chip raise preflop and then move all in for 3000, your opponent isn’t going anywhere.

Finally, your chip stack must be to the point where if you reraise preflop, it’s going to be all in.


A final note thrash.... when using a stop n go you move in NO MATTER WHAT. You don't see the flop, get scared and then check fold, otherwise it's a wasted play

[thrash1294]

got it thanks ZY-KENOBI

[Talking Poker]

One thing to add - this last part of your explanation is incorrect. The whole point is that NO MATTER WHAT, you are pushing in first to act on the next street (afer the flop, in your example). You can't chicken out if a King falls.

In fact, sometimes, like when your opponent is holding QQ in the scenario you described (since you don't know he's got AK), that King falling will win you to pot - you push with JJ and he folds his QQ, thinking YOU are holding AK.

[Talking Poker]

P.S. About that ebook - Did you ever send it to Dodoubled? I know he offered to do the annoying editing for you (grammar and such). If that was done when I got a copy, I think I'd be able to get through it much faster and might not put it off quite as much. No promises though - cause I do suck.