MTT - The Resteal

Windbreaker · #1 09-01-06, 03:23 AM

A) Do you even make this play?
B) How often?
C) Against which player? Does it matter?
D) Sitting at which position?
E) Against what type of stack sizes?
F) What's the reraise amount? All-in or large bet?
G) Does it matter what hand you hold? If so what hand will you do it with?
H) If reraised back, call based on pot odds?

When you're making this play....what are the key factors that influence you to make it.

ChipFish · #2 09-01-06, 05:04 PM

Bold.

Zybomb · #3 09-02-06, 12:54 AM

This is a great post -- unfortunately I dont have too much to contribute, my basic answers would have been along what chipfish posted.

Id be interested to see TP and other good tourny players opinions though

Talking Poker · #4 09-02-06, 01:48 AM

My opinions are actually a bit different than Chip's. I've been meaning to reply to this, but I keep forgetting, so I'll do it now. I'm actually going to add my answers on to Chips, so you can see the differences. I'll be Red Boy.

A) Do you even make this play? Yes.
Yes. Assuming you mean coming over the top of someone, regardless of your cards, when you think they are making a play.
B) How often? More than once per tourney
Probably less than Chip does. I really don't do this much, and almost never outside the blinds or on the button.
C) Against which player? The LAG that has shown he will fold to a reraise.
Yup. But also the guy who keeps attacking my blinds. I'm going to let him know early on that he's going to get played back at and my blinds aren't free for the taking.
Does it matter? Yes.
Agreed.
D) Sitting at which position?I prefer Late to the LAGs EP Raise. Although, EP works well also.
For me, I'd say I do this 50% of the time from the BB, 30% of the time from the SB and 20% of the time from the button (I love restealing from the CO when he tries to steal the blinds I want to steal). It is VERY rare that I do this from anywhere else, no matter how LAGgy my opponent is. It's just too risky that someone behind me will wake up with a real hand.
E) Against what type of stack sizes? Large vs Large.
Ideally, yes. It will also work when I'm large and he's medium, and in theory, you can do this when you are medium-small (not REALLY short, still dangerous enough to really put a dent in his stack) and he is only medium.
F) What's the reraise amount? Depends. (Pot-Pot+1/2)
All-in Depends or large bet Depends?
Definitely depends, but about the same as I'd be reraising if I was looking down at AA.
G) Does it matter what hand you hold? Sometimes yes, usually no.
If so what hand will you do it with? Any.
This is where we differ. I will NOT do this with any hand. I'll do it with something like 54s, sure, but I won't do it with J2o. Yuck. I need to be able to hit some sort of a flop, just in case.
H) If reraised back, call based on pot odds? If it won't cut my stack in half.
Depends entirely on the pot odds and how deep our stacks are. If I've got 10% of my stack in the middle already and he wants me to put another 10% in, that means I'm getting 3:1 and even if I fold on the flop, I'll still have 80% of my stack left, so I'm calling that every time. Note that this requires DEEP stacks.
When you're making this play....what are the key factors that influence you to make it.
Observing Victims previous play.
Of course. But there is one more very key factor too: My table image. If I've been playing a lot of pots, I won't even try this. If I've been card dead and have a tight image and have only shown down big hands, that's when this play works the best.

Lastly.... I think the main reason I don't make this play THAT MUCH is because as I've said 1000 times, I'd much rather play after the flop. I'm more likely to use those same restealing chips to just call MR. LAG's PFR and then pop him when he CB's the flop. That's just a more comfortable style for me, as I believe it's much harder for him to call me when he's only got 2 cards left to improve his hand and not five... This is still an important play to have in your arsenal, but I think that's probably why I don't do it as often as a lot of people do.

One last thing: The Re-resteal - Yeah, that's a play that is currently NOT in my bag of goodies. I just can't bring myself to do it. Maybe someday.

Zybomb · #5 09-02-06, 02:06 AM

I hope that one day I'll be a player up to the caliber where I can do what Andrew Black did against Phil Ivey at the 2005 WSOP ME

Ivey with a CO raise with K5s, Black reraises from the SB with A2s because he knows Phily Ivey is stealing. Phil Ivey Reraising again, knowing that Black is thinking that he's stealing and does not have to have a real hand to be reraising him. Black moving all in (and quickly), knowing that Ivey was stealing and thinking that Black thought he was stealing and thats why he reraised, so he made a third raise to portray the image that he wasn't stealing but it was just because he knew that he didn't have to have a real hand (if that last part got confusing IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE)

Talking Poker · #6 09-02-06, 02:09 AM

That was one of the most brilliant poker plays I have ever seen - By both players.... And there is absolutely NO WAY I could do that today. I feel like my (live tourney) game is pretty good, but I can't even fathom making that play. I mean, how could you be SURE???

That alone tells me I have a LOT of room for improvement.

Defendant · #7 09-02-06, 02:40 AM

The biggest factor for the re-resteal is the amount of chips you need to commit to this play. Think about it, the original raise, then the resteal with ~pot+1/2, and then the pot+1/2 AGAIN on top of that. Even if your stack is SUPER deep, this is gonna hurt, and you seem to be running a great chance of finding yourself WAY up shit creek.

Windbreaker · #8 09-02-06, 03:06 AM

I brought this topic up because I watched a fast forward version of one of the online pros at two plus twos complete hand history of one the million guarantees on Stars where he finished 5th.

And he made this play on a few occassions and was able to gain a lot chips at certain points with very poor hands.

As an example,

blinds 400/800, his stack was 31k, opponent M+2 with a stack of 41k raises to 2400. He has K7 suited and is next to act and pops it up to 7200 with two players behind him and two blinds to go through as well.

The opponent had just joined the table about 3 rounds earlier and wouldn't be someone I considered loose aggressive. When I saw him make the play, I was like wow...that's just a play I wouldn't make....but it worked.

Anyways, if anyone is interested...here's a link

you have to sign up to the site to view it...but it's well worth the time.

ChipFish · #9 09-02-06, 03:28 AM

This is not meant as a shot but,
This is a very good point if you just want to 'make the money'.

jaeh00d · #10 09-02-06, 05:29 AM

i remember that hand and being in complete awe, at the play Andrew Black made on Phil Ivey. Black made a great move there, he's seems like a really nice guy, just a tad bit weird.

Defendant · #11 09-02-06, 01:07 PM

Well, I figure that a lot of times when making the re-resteal, youre looking at pushing over half of your stack into the middle. If I do that, I better be pretty sure I get some return on my investment.

ChipFish · #12 09-02-06, 02:10 PM

How many times do you have to squeeze into the money to equal top 1-4 money?

Windbreaker · #13 09-02-06, 04:41 PM

When you're making the resteal, you're also doing the play with a high probability of taking the hand down uncontested. If you're targetting a player who has a loose raising standard, and you have the table image of a tight aggressive player... there's a high probability you're taking this pot down.

Think about it...if you're at a table and you raise 3x the BB and someone plays back at you for a large portion of their chips. What types of hands are you willing to gamble with in this spot? AA, KK, QQ, AK.....maybe jacks....other than that....you're probably folding this hand.

That's the whole point of the resteal....it's more likely you hold a mediocre to weak hand and will lay the hand down to someone showing strong agression.