Tournament play vs Cash play

[Zybomb]

I think the DIFFERENCE between the these two types of poker games is huge, and is often overlooked by the majority of poker players.

It is generally said that players who focus on tournament play generally are not good cash game players, because they don't fully understand the virtue of patience, and solid play in cash games.

The issue is, I believe more players tend to be cash players a bit more than tournament players -- and a huge issue comes up...playing too tight and having a lack of aggression. Leaving yourself into vulnerable situations, getting around that 10 BB limit and then resorting to the all in preflop move, leaving your tournament life up to luck

Especially at the World Series, if you look at all of the top finishers (I really didn't see enough of Hachem to know for sure) most of them are extremely aggressive.

David Williams, Josh Arieh, Greg Raymer, Chris Moneymaker, Sam Farha etc

Sure Dannennmann was tighter, and Harrington is a tight player (but one of the best in the world) -- but to put it simply tight solid play that is very effective in cash games, simply is not good enough (normally) to get you to the top money in a MTT. Your opening hands must be wider, you must play solid hands stronger than normal and you must be willing to take a gamble as long as YOU are the one doing the betting (semi bluffing and betting with outs is huge when combined witht he fold equity it has)

Look at this past years WSOP with Lane Flack and an opponent getting into a raise, reraise, re re raise, call PREFLOP war, with only 45s and 87o respectively.

Phil Ivey and Kevin Blacks preflop K5 vs A2, raise, reraise, re re raise, all in war.

The amount of chips gained in situations like this is crucial, especially when cards aren't coming, if you dont wanna be reduce to pushing with the first good hand you see preflop and leaving it up to luck.

Obviously reads play a big part in this, and online reads are different (if not less frequent) making things difficult.

Stack size plays such an important part in everything as well, with enough chips it allows you to take gambles with outs, to build a monster stack, take more stabs at pots, PLAY YOUR STACK not your cards, and see more flops with hidden hands.

I know TP is already in the Main Event this year and if I ever get my shit together, I'd like to make a serious attempt in the coming weeks to qualify, since I am going to be going down with my friend who qualified either way... so to him and others:

What are some of the different strategies you plan on using during this tournament and how does it change from your cash game play. (I realize that for LIMIT cash game players, the difference is HUGE). Do you agree or disagree with my above comments on the need for aggression in tournaments being severely under thought of? Also, when playing against an aggressive professional opponent at your table, how is the way you treat situations going to change (i.e are you going to value hands a bit more, set more traps, try and fake weakness with questionable bets, fold more and wait for them to bluff when you've got a monster etc)

[Talking Poker]

Good post. Good question. I haven't +Repped you in a while, so here ya go, champ.

I know what my basic strategy is going to be for the WSOP, but the most important determining factor is going to be how my table is playing. If they can be bullied, I'll bully. If they are a bunch of psychos, I'll sit back and set some traps.

What I am definitely going to do is avoid big pots... at least for the first day. I'll try to win a bunch of small pots and slowly build my stack, but I'm not going to be doing anything silly. I HOPE that I don't have to say "all in" even once on Day 1. If it comes to that, no worries, but I'm hoping to not find myself in that situation... at least not until late in the day.

You mention players playing too tight, but don't confuse that with too passive. You can play a tight aggressive style with much success in tourneys - I know I can, anyway. I find that style most comfortable, but I like to change gears frequently and play the super-loose aggressive style for a while here and there too. That's not my natural style, and I don't think I could re-reraise Phil Ivey with 8 high.... but there is a time and a place for it. When you KNOW your opponent is weak (which I couldn't know about Ivey), it's ok to play your stack and not your cards. In fact, it's necessary.

To answer your other question about how I'll play with a "pro" ay my table... let me let you in on a little secret. The "pros" aren't any better than the best online players that I play with all the time. Certainly many of them are - don't get me wrong, but it's not like they are gods or something. They are typically just solid poker players. Some are better than others, but I don't plan on changing my strategy one bit against unknown Player X or Daniel Negreanu. Just because someone has a face you recognize doesn't mean a thing.... It's how he plays and your read on him that matters the most.

Oh, and lastly - about the cash game vs. tourney difference, yes, it's huge... really huge. Fortunately for me (depending how you look at it), with NL HE, I feel more comfortable in a tourney setting that I do in a big cash game, so that's good for me at the WSOP. (Oddly enough, I'd rather play limit in a cash game than a tourney).

[X-Longshot-X]

I think tournaments are very important for any players game....i tend to do better in tournaments because i value my chips greatly.....many people fail to realize....that as the blinds go up the chips become more valuable.....this makes it easy to peck away at some players later in the tournies...in cash it doesnt change so its the same all the way through

[eejit101]

Having now playes alot of NL tourneys and cash games, and have entured slightly into thelimit side of it (20k hands) the difference is huge.

In tourneys i take way more risks, figure out the table, what kind of players there are, and go from there. Cash games i try and sit back, play the big hands fast, and the occasional hammer loose too.

If i get to the WSOP this year, number 1 goal, TPs advice is pretty solid. Avoid races, big pots on the first day, accumulate slowly, get yourself onto day 5 as it is. then from there loosen up a tad, and hit the money. Pros wouldnt scare me one bit, we know how they play better than anyone else at the table. Unknown internet qualifiers would scare me more, they are far more agressive, unless your sat on the left of Ivey, but if i get there itll all depend on the table.

Speaking of this, can someone find me the blind structure and starting chips for this years WSOP?

[Talking Poker]

I don't really agree with a lot of what you are writing there eej.... not sure where to start, really.

But I'll answer your question now and maybe get back to you on the rest. You can find all that info here:


Specifically, slick on the event name on this page:

[Aequitas58]

Bold.

[Zybomb]

The only reason Moneymaker's name was mentioned in there was because of his WSOP 03 win (and I was naming the final few players from the past few years WSOP, not necessarily professionals) -- and you know I cant mention Toto's name because I absolutely despise him and his poker game (anyone remember Danny Wynn (sp) won a WPT event last year, with his reckless pointless aggression which included CALLING an all in with a gutshot and winning a hand in which he was a 99.5% dog on the flop) yea he's the same player with a little more common sense

================================================== =======

And to your off topic comment: (this should probably be in a new thread or a PM since it's 100% off topic, but whatever)

It is done (although it has been done before and I've gone back to add a section, edit something etc, usually based on a Q that comes up here, or a situation I faced at the table that night and realized how crucial it was), and I've set up my paypal account to premier so I can accept funds etc. The only things left I have to do is get a website going, invest in/do some advertising/marketing, and figure out a price tag.

While getting the website up and running (and designed) is obviously the most important, The last issue (price tag), is my biggest concern. I can't say I've read every online e book on poker out there ( mostly because Im pretty sure the majority of them are not very informative) but I have gotten my hands on a few, simply to see what type of material is out there, how much it is being sold for etc.

The crazy thing is the average e-book goes for $47, with some going as high as $97!? I don't understand the '7' thing, nor do I understand what kind of material could be offered in these books that makes them more expensive (some triple) than an actual paperbackbook written by a professional -- unless there are some costs associated with selling online that I am either missing or are not aware of. Most recently I received an email about a book entitled the Micon System by an online semi-pro name Bryan Micon -- an audio course geared towards winning online MTTs, which was being sold for $97 and going up to $127 in a week or so. While he seems to have an above average track record, I cant imagine it rivals someone like Dan Harrington, who's paperback goes up < $30

I just don't understand these kind of price tags, yet at the same time if I price a book lower than standard, it may give potential buyers the wrong impression of the book. I'm really not joking when I say this book is probably the most informative book there is, for players who already grasp a lot of the basic and semi-advanced concepts of the game which are explained well in other books -- simply because it tackles a lot of issues which aren't addressed in books, yet discussion seems to be coming up on poker forums about. Other people's advice on matters that I have agreed with is incorperated into the book as well, I think I've learned something! Without a doubt I believe it to be the best investment on the internet for an e-book.

Currently the list of topics is as follows (cut and pasted so if the pages numbers etc are all over the place thats why)

Table of Contents

Introduction 1

Catching Up 5

Section 1: The Basics

₧ Bankroll Requirements… and occasionally breaking them 6
₧ Player Types and Playing against them 7
₧ Aggression 10
₧ Predictability: 11
₧ Keeping pots small unless you are sure you are ahead 12

Section 2: Pre-Flop Situations

₧ Observing the position of the Pre Flop Raiser 13
₧ Playing Position 14
₧ Hidden Positioning 16
₧ Calling raises HU from the SB 18
₧ Playing Small/Medium Pairs in an unraised pot 20
₧ Playing Small/Medium Pairs to a raise 21
₧ The “Squeeze Play” 24

Section 3: Situations which come up both preflop and postflop

₧ Raising Proper Amounts 25
₧ Not wasting money 28
₧ Raising when you will only get a call when you are beat 29
₧ Raising for information 32
₧ Making big laydowns (especially in tournament play) 34
₧ Playing Upper Middle Pairs to a Reraise 35

Section 4: Post Flop Situations and Concepts

Section 4 Part 1: Concepts

₧ Continuation Bets 37
₧ Slowplaying/Check-Raising 40
₧ The turn “Slowplay” 44
₧ Gambling, to maximize value with a strong hand 45
₧ Drawing hands: Raising, Calling and Folding 46
₧ Implied Odds 50
₧ The “Stop and Go” Technique 52
₧ Bluffing 53

Section 4 Part 2: Situations

₧ Taking control of Hands by checking? ? 55
₧ Playing OVERLY aggressively 57
₧ The check/call mode of No Limit 58
₧ Calling with Intention of later stealing 60
₧ When just Calling can be the correct decision 62
₧ When Odds control your decision 63
₧ Bluffing into dry side pots 64
₧ Showing down cheaper 65
₧ Not Showing Down and giving free info 66
₧ Extracting the Maximum Value out of your hands 67
₧ Reading the board through your opponents eyes 68
₧ Putting your opponents on hands 69
₧ Representing Hands 71

Section 4 Part 3: Specific Situations

₧ Specific Ways of playing Flushes to get action 73
₧ Flop a straight, flush comes on turn 75
₧ Flop a flush to a PFRer out of position. 76
₧ Flopping the nut straight and the pot has been bet and
raised before you 77

Section 5: Finishing Up

₧ Playing While Short Handed 78
₧ Typical Online Players Thinking 80
₧ Levels of Poker 81

Closing 84

Looking over this, (Im on my new cpu right now which I dont think has the most updated copy of the book on it) I believe I added another topic because the book has a few more pages than 84

Well there's the (long) update

Feel free to ask any ?'s/make comments

[Talking Poker]

Damn... that looks awesome.

I never did get around to reading that old copy you sent me way back when (soory), but when you think you have a polished version, I am serious that I'd like to edit it for you.

[Zybomb]

sounds good -- I'll take you up on that -- probably in the near future too

[Talking Poker]

I was actually thinking about this on the plane today.... quite a bit.

With your approval/permission/invitation, I'd very much like to write the forward for your book, along with editing the entire thing.

I have some more ideas on this too, and wouldn't mind being a bigger contributor if you are interested. I also thought up some marketing type ideas for you - nothing crazy, but I think I could definitely help you out. I'd be willing to do all of this for free, btw (if you insisted on giving me a SMALL cut of the revenue, I wouldn't say no, but it would need to be small)... my motivation here isn't for the money. I really love the idea of you going forward with this and want to help you any way I can.

Feel free to PM or email me if you'd like to talk about this more. And let's see how polished you can get this thing by the end of the weekend. It will give me something to read on the plane on Tuesday.