All in Preflop with AK...

[Talking Poker]

I thought this was worthy of a new thread and hopefully a new discussion. This started here:


I used to think this was a TERRIBLE play myself... until I saw Don Mullis doing it over and over and over again in Aruba.... and going deep consistently. I thought it was a really weak move, but (as much as it pains me to admit), this guy is a solid player. So I started giving it some more thought.

And actually, I know that bdawg has very recently been experimenting with this with GREAT success. Maybe we can get him to post about it here.

I think the theory is that even when playing them "normally," a lot of people end up winning small pots with AK or losing big ones. By playing them all in like this, you will usually still only win a small pot, but you'll lose the big ones far less often (usually you take it down preflop). If you do get called, unless you are up against AA or KK (which likely would have clobbered you after the flop anyway if you got any piece of it), you're basically at worst a coinflip. PLUS, if you are up against a hand like QQ, you now get to see all 5 board cards to improve your hand, where playing "normally," you'd only get to see 3 and would have to get off of your hand after a ragged flop. Now you get to see the turn and river as well, for what is effectively 67% more of a chance to improve. You're opponent also can't get off his QQ for cheap if the A or K comes on the flop. Lastly (I guess), factor in the times when you'll get called by AQ and such, because they assume you have a baby pair, and this move starts looking more and more +EV.

Sorry for that rambling post... just trying to get the ideas down quickly.

I have yet to try this yet and I don't know that I will anytime soon, but like I said, I know bdagw has been experimenting with it recently. He gets made fun of, but he's been extremely successful too (he was 14-0 with this the last time I checked). So hopefully he'll post his thoughts on it too.

[melioris]

is this a tournament only strategy?

And I appreciate that it is not completely applicable, but allin preflop with AK seems to run counter to your advice here

[Talking Poker]

-This is tournament strategy, yes.
-This is NOT my advice. I'm just trying to explain it to those that think it is absurd.
-How does that run counter to my advice? Where, exactly?

[eejit101]

W0000000000000000000000000000000000000T


Love it TP, love it to bits.

Finally we agree on something.

Those are my reasons for playing AK like that. Spot on Bro.

[Boobie Lover]

basically advises the same thing.

[Talking Poker]

Settle down... I'm not sold on it yet. Just explaining the logic behind it. I have yet to actually make it a part of my game.

[bdawg31]

I have been running cold and getting CRUSHED with AK. I had recently been mulling the whole thing about Don pushing and how he gets deep and blah-blah-blah. Figured i was not playing that well - so why not just push with it and see what happens.

Now, i dont do this when the blinds are low - i play it 'normal' at that point, but i get off it at any sign of resistance or trouble. But, once the blinds are 'reasonable' i have been pushing with it.

I am appx 14-15 hands won with it doing this. This includes a suckout vs AA though. I have doubled up two or three times total (counting the suckout), taken down a few hands that were raised (and then folded to my push), taken a lot of blinds, and lost once when i got called by 66 (i couldnt believe it - the blinds were 100/200 and i went all-in for 3k and the guy called off almost all his stack - just as the table was making fun of me).

I am not sure yet how i feel about this. Part of Don doing this in the live games is that he was able to make the WHOLE table know it - and then he used that for other hands. I saw him push with A9s and make some comment and the other guy threw away AJ (don then showed the A9). But he had created this by doing the whole "I always push with AK" shtick.

Now, last night i was getting deep in a $100 tourney at UB and i got it one off the button. A tight, good player made a min-raise UTG. This set off red flags so i just called with AK. Rags flopped and i folded. That was the only time i have not pushed with it recently.

[Talking Poker]

It's a shame you didn't push on that hand too.... I would have loved to have seen how it played out. My guess is he would have folded preflop. It's VERY hard to call an all in REraise with anything besides AA and KK.

BTW - when bdawg says he is "14-15," he means he is 14 for 15 (W-Total), or as normal people would write it: 14-1 (W-L). Just wanted to clear that up so there was no confusion. When he told me he was "7-7" at one point, my immediate reaction was that this must be the worst idea EVER!

[Zybomb]

It seems the only way you will get action is

1- if you are up against a dumb player

2- you are beat

3- you are at a coin flip with a large pair (say 99-QQ, but more liekly only JJ and QQ)

it's tough to factor 1 into numbers, being each table is different

Sure you eliminate alot of 60.40 situations with QJ 98s and such but it seems you'll either take down this small pot, or otherwise have to get lucky. And your risking your tournament to add a 1/15 increse to yuor stack

AK is one of the most overvalue hands in hold em

Contrasting for a second, in a big tournament a lot of people (pros especially) simply play for the win... they go for a big stack early or they go for bust, that means moving all in on that flush draw with overs (or in johnny chan's case calling with the 2nd nut flush draw with 1 card to come and no overs???) [2003 WSOP] This could be a case similiar to that, hoping your up against either an idiot, or JJ and you wint he race

[bdawg31]

yes, i should be saying 14 OUT OF 15 - or as TP suggested the normal, accepted way of 14-1 while doing this.

And actually, i have two chops in there - so i guess i am really 12-1-2. one was a chop with another AK and one was a chop with some hand like A4 or some nonsense like that. Those are rough numbers - i stopped keeping exact track once i was like 12-1 or so.

[badblood44]

There is something to this, especially in race situations.

If you hit your A or K on the flop against the opposition's pair, the flop is an action killer and you win a small pot. If the flop is rags, you most likely need to fold your hand losing a small pot.

If you include the fold equity that pushing with AK grants you, then I think you gain EV with this move in many situations. Basically the fold equity you have puts you ahead in any race.

In scenarios where your M is large-ish, your EV is diminished, and in fact can be negative on such a move. You need to weigh the pot size you are trying to steal against the odds of your opponent holding KK or AA.

[melioris]

I understand that you were merely trying to point out the merits of this strategy and not necessarily endorsing it. I was only busting you a little bit because you always seem to prefer to outplay an opponent postflop as opposed to going allin preflop, unless of course you have KK.

[bdawg31]

Another reason one might want to consider the all-in with AK is the fact that it eliminates us misplaying it post-flop. Personally, I find AK a hard hand for me to play post-flop. I found myself crippling or eliminating myself with it a lot - sometimes through overplaying it, sometimes get outdrawn on, etc. So, i thought - why not just take all the post flop out of it?

Assume for a minute we are about as half as good as we think we are - i can almost guarantee that most of us will at least somewhat misplay AK post flop from time to time.

And when i (or Don) say "I go all-in with AK all the time", its "all the time". Doesnt matter what pot size or etc. Now, again, the first few rounds i dont do that when the blinds are low.

[bdawg31]

I am also toying with modifying this a bit based on position. If i get AK in early and mid positions - push all-in. I HATE playing AK out of position. If i get it in late position - then maybe play it 'normally'.

[Talking Poker]

Touche!

[SirFWALGMan]

I somewhat agree with you TP and it is just a style issue.

Some reason to do it:

AK plays better with five cards. What do you do if you call a big raise and the flop comes 28Q. Probably fold.

AK is rarely far behind any hand besides AA and KK. So if you are a gambooler or have people wayyy covered you can force a fold and/or possibly double up if you win the coin flip.

Resons not to:

Do you like coin flips all the time? How about trying to play some real poker and maybe outplay someone on the flop or something novel like that?

Anyway, I agree the AK all-in has its place in Tourney play but I would not over use it.

[Talking Poker]

So.... you are paraphrasing my "Pro" list, and your "Con" list has nothing to do with winning, but something to do with... what... pride, I guess? Stop worrying about showing off and start worrying about winning.

Remember - it's only a coin flip if you get called. All in reraises have HUGE fold equity.

And again, I am not saying I am in favor of this strategy... just doing my best to explain it's merits.

[SirFWALGMan]

Its not a pride thing. First off in the games I play (which play much differently than your) my AK all in raise is more likely to be called than not. I.E. Last night when my 2's got called by 5's for half his stack. (My M was Under 5 which I think means I had to push)

I am just saying that I think I am a better player than a 50/50 guy. I think I can play a flop and read an opponent and outplay the guy who has less skill than I do. If I push in pre-flop I am like every other monkey and can not use my mad skillz.

I would have no shame in pushing all in with AK and losing. I would also have no problem folding it to a raise, or playing the flop with it. Another hand like this is pocket KK/QQ even AA. I like pushing with these kind of hands because you are usually ahead. However I also like seeing a flop with QQ and then deciding what my next move is. I cut down on 3 cards for my opponent, and I get to see a board. I used to only push all in because I was afraid the flop would have an ace. What I found out is the Ace high monkeys are going to call me anyways and I would rather cut down there odds and have more information to play with.

[badblood44]

I don't think this is a fair comparison. Your fold equity here is much less AND the odds of this play being a coin-flip are far worse (more possible pairs to dominate yours).