Playing Down to the Level of the Table

SoCalBoss · #1 11-19-04, 10:13 PM

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fish...but do you find yourself playing down to the least common denominator? When I see very poor players, I just can't pass up playing hands I'd otherwise fold. Is this common? It has worked for me over the past month and a half...am I an idiot? OK, don't answer that...

jdiana86 · #2 11-19-04, 10:35 PM

I hear ya, but you just have to stay focused.

SirFWALGMan · #3 11-19-04, 10:42 PM

I have seen myself do it, and it is a recipe for disaster! There are reasons to not play stupid cards, etc..

Now if your talking pre-flop, and a guy is a tool, and is always being aggresive with nothing in his hand (maniac), I would still be careful about playing down to his level. Just wait until you get the good hands and take his money then.

Kidd7138 · #4 11-20-04, 12:37 PM

At tables like this I usually just play more patient, don't stoop down to the level of a worse player. If you just play tight, wait for good hands, and don't go chasing too much, you can usually beat these tables in the long run. Ocassionally you'll get sucked out and your KQ will get beat by a 74, but if you don't let a bad beat or two affect your play, you should be able to come out on top.

Talking Poker · #5 11-20-04, 01:14 PM

This is a bad strategy in the long run... and the worst part of it is by having short term success with it, you are reinforcing bad habits. This is not good for your game.

Try to stick to your A game and stay patient. Play enough hands, and you'll be a winner.

BlibbityBlabbity · #6 11-20-04, 01:18 PM

I have been running into this situation A LOT lately....

This is in a low/microlimit game, and there are one (or more) players at the table who:

1) raise with any two cards preflop. In general I wait for good hands in this situation and punish the hell out of them. There are MANY more bad beats in this situation than any other, and if you lose 6-7 good hands in a row against trash, it is hard to stay off tilt

.

2) Re-raise you with ANY pair post-flop. Ok, so I flopped top pair top kicker, raised pre-flop, and it is checked to me. Bet out, get a call from the guppy. Assuming no flush or straights on board, I make it 3 bets (other caller would stay in with anything). Get a call and little nemo CAPS IT??? Now I know fish can hit hands too, but if they do this every time with bottom pair, it either makes for a VERY profitable session if they dont improve, or a VERY bad session if they do make two pair, trips on the turn/river.

3) Raise/Re-raise all the way through to river with a flush bluff from the turn (scare cards) Same situation as #2, but on the turn the flush (or straight) hits the board and then sushi starts firing bets/raises, and continues all the way to the river if you play back at him. Do you lay this down, check and call, or pay off the possible bigger hand with top pair, or even top two??? I have found players who do this so regularly that you almost have to call them down to avoid seeing them turn over bottom pair when that other calling station called them down with A high OVER and OVER and OVER again.

I think in all these situations (as with most things in poker) getting a good read on the players, what they do, and when they do it, is key to not throwing away too much when they DO have a hand, and not giving them hands they don't deserve, just because they are overbetting an inferior hand.

Ok, i'm back off to the tanks.....

Aequitas58 · #7 11-20-04, 04:00 PM

No, I tighten up.

When I play better players, I generally play more hands for two reasons:
1. better players CAN lay down a good hand, and
2. better players will generally play tighter.

Tilter · #8 11-20-04, 06:27 PM

When i play with fishes, I just loosen up and call hands like 78s, 67o, j9s, hands that I wouldn't call against a tight table. But I don't play lowest common denominator hands.

Penguinfan · #9 11-20-04, 08:23 PM

I just can't believe a post started out with something besides "I consider myself a strong player". Props to you for being honest with yourself about your game, gigantic step in becoming a better player. I think things started to turn for me when I realized I was not very good at all. Sounds weird, but it's the truth.

Aequitas58 · #10 11-20-04, 08:55 PM

Love your sig, Peng...

Talking Poker · #11 11-21-04, 12:24 AM

Was just thinking the same thing. Made me LOL.

stussy2k · #12 11-21-04, 04:23 AM

this post has never been more relevant than me today. I was playing this charity game with 120$ buy in, and these guys were terrible. I loosened up, and started bluffing thinking that they had nothing and got busted fairly early. hard lession to stomach.

bigjohnstud2o · #13 11-21-04, 06:31 AM

i could say different. I have learned this the hard way. 2 months after my marriage my wife asked where $1k had mysteriously gone. I had lost it online playing bad hands. I thought hell i always get rivered so I lost about 250 then was in "try to win it back" mode. That does not work either. Hard lesson and cost me a month of no poker. I decided that should be my punishment for myself that way i never try anything that stupid again.

BlibbityBlabbity · #14 11-21-04, 12:32 PM

Early in my session last night I had this hand....

10 9 in BB

3 calls, LP raises, I call, all call.

A 10 3 (2 clubs) I check, all check to LP who raises.

I call (I had been watching and LP had been showing down garbage, so I figured I would see the turn,if I dont improve, I'm out), all call.

turn is the J clubs putting the straight and flush on the board. All check to the LP who bets, I fold, someone raises, LP re-raises, raiser calls, others fold.

capped on the river, which was a 9.

LP turns over 66 and other turns over A7os, PAIR OF ACES WINS????

I would have won with 2 PAIR?????

You just never know what these players have. They would bet with any pair (regardless of what is on board) and they will bet it down to the river, and turn over garbage.

I might have saved 1 BB by not calling the pre-flop raise or the bet on the flop, but similar to low limit omaha games where lots of players stay in drawing I like to see the turn with anything, then I am out if I don't improve. And I ONLY do this against the players at the table who would bet anything but top pair consistantly. Still not a good play, probably, but if you do improve, you get paid off enough to more than make up for a few SB's lost seeing a few turns IMO.

"buy low, sell high"

Talking Poker · #15 11-21-04, 12:46 PM

Rule #1: You can't bluff bad players.

Talking Poker · #16 11-21-04, 12:49 PM

You were chasing a 5 outer. Regardless of what the river brought, the correct decision was for you told fold. And if you did chase it, and did catch your river card, how would you like losing to A9, for example?

Aequitas58 · #17 11-21-04, 03:18 PM

This is so true. It's so important to realize, in fact, maybe we should make it a sticky under the Bad Beats section!

BlibbityBlabbity · #18 11-21-04, 03:41 PM

When I said "I would have won with 2 pair" I didn't mean I should have played it through, just that in that situation you at least want to see someone win with the straight or the flush, or even Aces over something, BUT NOT A PAIR!!!

I agree you CAN NOT chase in these situations or you will find yourself on serios tilt when they get better results from their chasing (like you said losing to A9).

Edit: Do you mean chasing it as far as I did, or that I shouldn't have chased it any farther. You are probably right in either case. If you think I should have folded on the flop, what situations might I stay in the hand in your opinion? Only with a open ended straight draw, flush draw, or two low pair? Obviously, top pair (with good kicker) and better I would play back into him.

Defendant · #19 11-21-04, 04:34 PM

If by "going down to their level" you mean "play loose, play any 2 cards", then DEFINITELY no. As said before, stick with tight play.

There is however one element you need to consider lowering to their level: You just simply cannot count on most of these people to fall for your bluffs and clever plays: Even if you read someone completely correct...90% of low-limit online fishes are unbluffable.

That to me was the hardest lesson to learn.

Defendant

hackers238 · #20 11-21-04, 06:07 PM

I also don't think its an issue of "lowering" your level, just adapting your playing style to the situation, which is the real nitty-gritty of poker.

If you think you need to lower yourself to the table because they're beating you when your playing your "top-game", then your top game isnt very good, is it?

SoCalBoss · #21 11-21-04, 06:40 PM

Well, I suppose every site with a message board has it's share of smartasses (or is it smartassi?). It appears everyone else understood the basis of the question...

junYUN · #22 11-21-04, 06:45 PM

i would say playing down is never a good idea. a strong player will dictate the table, not let the table dictate him. (very philisophical, eh?)

hackers238 · #23 11-21-04, 07:29 PM

smartassi. And my comment was just an observation. And I will only say this once: I am not going to retaliate against negativity. It's a waste of TPs money to see us arguing amonst ourselves by posting.

Kidd7138 · #24 11-21-04, 07:49 PM

I think the point that Hackers was trying to make was that your "top game" shouldn't be one set style. Your top game should involve adapting to your environment and be able to make smart decisions against all types of players. You shouldn't have to change your game, just make the adaptations that you're capable of making according to the table.