The TalkingPoker.com Forum  

Go Back   The TalkingPoker.com Forum > All Things Poker > General Poker Discussion
Register Blogs Arcade HH Converter Calendar

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-13-06, 10:22 AM
PShabi PShabi is offline
MC Adam Yauch
 

Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,947
PShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep Points
Default Great 6-max article

This is cross-posted from another site, apparently it was written by Ed Miller.:

6 man Hold-em

This article was written by Ed Miller who is working with David Sklansky on a new book right now and I just thought it was so good that I wanted to print it here for you all!
I rarely have played online. When I played full-time, I liked to play live games, and in Las Vegas, I had no shortage. Recently, I've started to play online a bit, and I figured I'd throw out a couple of observations I've made.
As of December, 2005, if you are already a winning player, and you play below $15-$30 on Party, you belong in 6-max games. My first-order swag is that, game for game, the 6-max games are perhaps up to twice as profitable. Here's why:
Lower per-hand rake. More hands per hour. Less folding - you can't make money when you have to fold. Much softer competition. It's not entirely clear to me why, but the players at, say, $3-$6 6-max are far weaker than those at $3-$6 full. Perhaps the action junkies are naturally drawn to the short-handed games.
I know a lot of people are scared of the short games. It's true - the variance is a bit larger at the short games. And a lot of players don't feel comfortable playing so many hands in blind steal/blind defense situations. But if you are winning consistently at the full games, I strongly suggest that you close your eyes and make the jump. A few months from now, you'll be happy.
Whatever limit you are playing full, drop down one, and try 6-max there. The swings, in absolute terms, will be lower, and your winrate likely won't suffer much at all. Then you can move up the more profitable 6-max ladder. And if you play full games after months of 6-max experience, you'll feel las if you have been running with weights on your shoes and you just took them off.
Now for a couple of tips for the aspiring 6-max player.
If They're Calling, You Should Be Betting
I've made this point several times before, but I feel it deserves repeating here because it's a critical concept for small 6-max games. The way you beat calling stations is by betting, betting, betting. Bet when you have a good hand. Bet when you have a mediocre hand. Bet when you have a not-so-good hand.
For some reason, calling stations manage to convince some aspiring players to stop betting against them. Why bet, since they are just going to call anyway? Why bet? Because that's where your edge is.
Let's take UbetIcall. This player sees 50-80% of flops (not an entirely uncommon beast at small 6-max games - see what you're missing?). UbetIcall likes to limp in preflop with stuff like 9 6. UbetIcall likes to call a single bet with that same hand on flops of AJ7. Why? Who knows.
UbetIcall will fold the turn if it's the A or 4. But if it's the T (giving him a gutshot), he'll take another card off. And if he catches a pair on the turn, he'll stick around to the end. With A4, he'll give the same action, check-call all streets. So how do you beat UbetIcall? You bet, bet, bet. Let's take the 30,000-foot view of the situation.
You play tighter than UbetIcall, so you are going to make the better hand by the river more often. You are also going to have position on him more often than you "should," since he'll happily limp under the gun or defend his blind with trash, while you are more selective in those positions. Also, UbetIcall doesn't raise, or, specifically, check-raise often enough. So his typical action will be checking and calling. When UbetIcall enters the pot in front of you, your basic strategy should be:
Attempt to isolate with a raise. Choose hands with showdown value like A4 or K9 rather than 75. UbetIcall is going to show up at the river with nine-high fairly often. Make sure you can beat it. If isolation was successful, bet the flop. Then bet the turn. Then bet the river if you made a pair, and check it without one. Obviously, this is oversimplified. Sometimes you'll be checking the turn unimproved. Sometimes you'll check the river with a small pair. Sometimes UbetIcall will show up somewhere with a raise. But after thousands of hands with him, this should be your most common pattern. So is it a winner for you?
Well, generally speaking, when you make the better hand (which will be more than half the time since you play tighter), you'll win three and a half bets: two preflop half-bets, a flop half-bet, a turn bet, and a river bet. When you don't make the better hand, you'll lose two and a half bets: two preflop half-bets, a flop half-bet, and a turn bet. Obviously, sometimes you'll check down on the river only to find out that king-high is good. And sometimes you'll bet the river to find that he did indeed flop an ace.
But over time, you'll win 3.5 on your good hands and lose 2.5 on your bad ones. That's all you need to crush him. Here's a quick example:
UbetIcall limps in. You're on the button with K7 and raise. The big blind calls, as does UbetIcall. Flop comes J52. Checked to you, and you bet. Big blind folds, and UbetIcall calls. Turn is the 7. He checks, you bet, he calls. River is the 9. He checks, you bet, he calls. Expect to see a seven with a weaker kicker, a five, a deuce, or ace- or king-high far more than a jack or nine.
Incidentally, this is another big advantage to choosing hands with showdown value. Often you will win a kicker battle on your modest pair. If you favor hands with aces and kings in them, your king-seven will often beat his ten-seven.
Anyway, don't worry too much about "betting his hand for him" when he beats you by calling down with a small pair. You bet your hand for you even more often, and you bet your hands harder. Ultimately, UbetIcall doesn't have a chance.
Confuse the Autopilot
A fair number of the "good" players at low-limit 6-max seem to play on autopilot. They play almost by formula. They can get away with it because very few players try to take advantage of it. But you should.
Particularly, many of these players seem to have "standard" folds they like to make in medium-sized pots. If you identify such a player, and anyone you think plays "well" is a potential candidate, try to create situations where he'll make a "standard," but incorrect, fold. Here's an example:
You open-raise. Autopilot 3-bets from the button. Everyone folds, and you call. The flop comes T86. You check, he bets, and you check-raise. An autopilot player with overcards will typically either fold immediately, or call and fold unimproved on the turn. Exploit that tendency. If you have K9, consider a flop check-raise. Preflop 3-bettors on autopilot hate flops like T86. Put the pressure on.
Obviously, you shouldn't spew bets indiscriminately. But a key characteristic of 6-max games is that often it will be 3-bets before the flop, a bet on the flop, and yet no one has a pair. If you snatch more than your share of these 11-bet, semi-up-for-grabs pots, you'll have a significant edge.
Good luck in the short games, and expect more 6-max and tax-related articles in the future.
h0pin they push the pot your way!
poker rags

posted by pokerrags | 7:37 PM | 0 comments
__________________
Get well soon, MCA!
  #2  
Old 01-13-06, 10:25 AM
X-Longshot-X X-Longshot-X is offline
Banned
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Somewhere in Ohio(No city srry holdemstewart)
Posts: 1,131
X-Longshot-X has between -10 and 0 Rep Points
Default

Yeah I saw this article before its a good one well worth reading
  #3  
Old 01-13-06, 11:42 AM
studiopet's Avatar
studiopet studiopet is offline
Shark
 

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 836
studiopet has between 100 and 249 Rep Pointsstudiopet has between 100 and 249 Rep Pointsstudiopet has between 100 and 249 Rep Points
Default

F*ck - thats me.
__________________
  #4  
Old 01-13-06, 11:44 AM
Talking Poker's Avatar
Talking Poker Talking Poker is offline
Adminimus Maximus
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Florida Coast
Posts: 27,480
Talking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Points
Default

Good article. That just earned you your third green bar...

I haven't played cash games in ages. I'm going away for a couple of days, but maybe when I get back and things get a little less crazy, I'll try to get back into 6 max for a while.
__________________

Got RakeBack?
27% at Full Tilt | 33% at Cake Poker | 30% at Carbon Poker
  #5  
Old 01-13-06, 12:05 PM
PShabi PShabi is offline
MC Adam Yauch
 

Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,947
PShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep Points
Default

LOL. It may have very well been me for a while. But now, I run over Mr. Autopilot.
__________________
Get well soon, MCA!
  #6  
Old 01-13-06, 12:08 PM
PShabi PShabi is offline
MC Adam Yauch
 

Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,947
PShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep Points
Default

Apart from the occasional (1/week, tops) MTT and forum tourneys, it's all I ever play.

I still enjoy these games more than anything. Constant action baby.
__________________
Get well soon, MCA!
  #7  
Old 01-13-06, 01:09 PM
melioris melioris is offline
squeezed the charmin
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 3,015
melioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Points
Default

I am thinking of playing 6-max, but i have a couple of questions for those of you that already do. First, I assume this article was written about limit 6-max. Do the same trends hold true for NL 6-max?

I have watched some 6-max $25NL and $50NL and can't believe the hands that are played and the manner in which they are played. Hence my thinking of taking it up.

I started playing limit and then switched to NL because it was more profitable. Is it recommended that when starting to play 6-max, play limit first and then switch to NL if the feeling comes?

And not to be a numbers junkie, but what are some ballpark 6-max preflop numbers for limit and NL? I am guessing, but for limit 35/30/4 and NL 25/20/3 or something like this?
  #8  
Old 01-13-06, 02:37 PM
PShabi PShabi is offline
MC Adam Yauch
 

Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,947
PShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep PointsPShabi has between 2500 and 2999 Rep Points
Default

Yes, it's a 6-max limit article.

I don't think you can say absolutely that NL is more profittable. A lot of the big money cash players play limit.

6-max limit should be around 24-26% preflop, with 17-18% raising. Post flop aggression can be anywhere from 1.8 to 3.8. I've seen successful players in those ranges mostly.
__________________
Get well soon, MCA!
  #9  
Old 01-13-06, 03:04 PM
melioris melioris is offline
squeezed the charmin
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 3,015
melioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Pointsmelioris has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Points
Smile

All that I meant by that was that it was more profitable for me at the low levels I play. If I have learned anything in poker, it is that there are no absolutes about poker.
Closed Thread


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©2004-2008 TalkingPoker.com