what the fuck was this guy thinking?

[Hawt]

PokerStars Game #3369145700: Hold'em Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/12/18 - 16:08:56 (ET)
Table 'Indus II' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Motts99 ($19.25 in chips)
Seat 2: Shmaines ($27 in chips)
Seat 3: Hawtness ($17 in chips)
Seat 4: chouki ($7.50 in chips)
Seat 6: buudspa ($12 in chips)
Hawtness: posts small blind $0.25
chouki: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hawtness [Ad 6c]
buudspa: calls $0.50
Motts99: folds
Shmaines: calls $0.50
Hawtness: calls $0.25
chouki: checks
*** FLOP *** [7h 6d 6s]
Hawtness: bets $0.50
chouki: calls $0.50
buudspa: raises $0.50 to $1
Shmaines: calls $1
Hawtness: raises $0.50 to $1.50
chouki: folds
buudspa: folds
Shmaines: calls $0.50
*** TURN *** [7h 6d 6s] [Kc]
Hawtness: bets $1
Shmaines: calls $1
*** RIVER *** [7h 6d 6s Kc] [9h]
Hawtness: bets $1
Shmaines: raises $1 to $2
Hawtness: raises $1 to $3
Shmaines: calls $1
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Hawtness: shows [Ad 6c] (three of a kind, Sixes)
Shmaines: shows [Td 8d] (a straight, Six to Ten)
Shmaines collected $14 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $14.50 | Rake $0.50
Board [7h 6d 6s Kc 9h]
Seat 1: Motts99 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Shmaines (button) showed [Td 8d] and won ($14) with a straight, Six to Ten
Seat 3: Hawtness (small blind) showed [Ad 6c] and lost with three of a kind, Sixes
Seat 4: chouki (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: buudspa folded on the Flop

[rookette22]

This is a great example of Zybomb's Pet Peeve #4 :




PS: Hopefully I'm off the hook lol

[Talking Poker]

"I only need one card for a straght."

[Hawt]

It's hands like these that assure that I will never ever make a dime in cash games. Ever.

[Talking Poker]

Well, you're looking at it all wrong then. It should be assuring you of quite the opposite... reminding you just how bad your opponents are, and how easy it is to beat them in the long run.

[Hawt]

With Limit it just seems like no matter how well I am doing (for example I sat down at that game with $10 and got it up to $17) I can never seem to build anything up because I always lose it and go back down to even. Which is better than No Limit though I guess where I normally bust out.

[viscus77]

this is a prime example of why No Limit is better than Limit. Very hard to bet and get some one to fold. You will always have chasers that will win on the river but it is especially true in Limit poker.

[Talking Poker]

Yes, and more ofthen than not, they will pay you off with their inferior hands and chasing draws that they don't have the odds to chase.

Why don't people get that???

[bdawg31]

People always say they like playing No Limit because "you can bet and get them to fold their draws". Speaking about cash games - you do NOT want them to fold their draws. You want them to call on their draws when you bet enough that it is not profitable for them to call long-run.

Yes, after the hand plays out and they hit their draw - you wish they would have folded - but that is just your reaction to a bad result.

Same with limit. Take the hand in question in this string. Lets pretend that the opponent showed his cards face up. Hawt made the bet and the opponent said - "Here is what i have, what do you want me to do, call or fold?" I am HOPING Hawt - and any other sane person - would say "By all means, call!". If you want him to fold - then how do you expect to make any money? He has FOUR outs. Are you playing just to steal blinds and make a few small pots on contination bets, even when you flop trips with top kicker?

Do you want them to always fold when they have the worst hand and only call you when they have you beat?

[Hawt]

That is a GREAT way to look at it.

[Talking Poker]

This is a much better explanation of what I was trying to say.

But seriously, why don't more people get that?

[studiopet]

Because it sucks when it doesn't work out like it *should*. When they miss - its great and you are a superhero, when they hit its like being kicked in the balls by a donk who clearly doesnt' know how to play cards.

[Talking Poker]

But see, that's just it. It "*should*" NOT work out a certain percentage of the time. That's the math behind it all. Keep making your opponents make more mistakes than you, and in the long run, you'll come out way ahead. Even with the bad beats that you have to learn to EXPECT, because they are all a part of what SHOULD happen.

[studiopet]

Mike McDermott: In "Confessions of a Winning Poker Player," Jack King said, "Few players recall big pots they have won, strange as it seems, but every player can remember with remarkable accuracy the outstanding tough beats of his career." It seems true to me, cause walking in here, I can hardly remember how I built my bankroll, but I can't stop thinking about the way I lost it.

Thats why people "don't get it" regardless of how often it is meant to happen or not. You'll always feel like you got kicked in the balls until it catches back up to you.

[Talking Poker]

Feeling like that is fine, but at the end of the day/month/week, when your roll is bigger than when it started, I would think logic would kick in and you would realize that those bad players making their bad plays are where that money came from...

[Zybomb]

Being a NL player, I think I can explain this a little better than others have been trying to

YES I want you to call on a draw when you do not have odds...regardless if you hit or not, im looking long term. YES I want you to make incorrect decisions.

The PROBLEM is in limit games players often DO have proper odds to draw...not only to flush draws and straight draws, but, at times, to over cards, gutshots, backdoors with an over etc. The fact that it often becomes SHOWDOWN POKER takes a huge element out of the game.

You want to FORCE your opponents to make mistakes by chasing... in limit you can not control how much u bet, so generally you cant do that.

EVEN HEADS UP

Say I raise preflop, and only one person calls....we'll put the blinds at 5/10 to make things easy. I raise to 20 one person calls (I'll even put him in the small blind) and the BB folds (although getting 5:1 on his money, he probably shouldnt be eliminated anyway)... there is now 50 dollars in the pot. He flops a flush draw, I can only bet 10...he is getting 6:1, he has to call. On the turn he misses, there is now 70 dollars in the pot, I can only bet 20, he is now getting 4.5: to 1, ignoring implied odds (the check call on the river if the flush comes)

So at no point during the hand did I deny him proper odds, nor did I have the opportunity to

thus there was nothing i could do to get him off his flush... if this were a NL game, I could of gotten a read on him, PUT HIM on the flush draw draw, made him pay an expensive (incorrect) price on the flop, and once he missed the turn most likely gotten him to fold with another large bet... thus he'd never get to see the river

Not to mention the difference in strength of certain plays (continuation bets for example), and the representing hands element...

Maybe that sums up a little bet what some of the NL cash game players are trying to say?

[Talking Poker]

I understand what you are saying... but now look at the other side. MOST of the time, he's not going to make his flush and you are going to take down the pot - and you will have gotten 1.5 more big bets out of him along the way than if you had pushed in (extreme example) on the flop and he folded. You are basically risking 1.5 more bets yourself vs his 1.5 more bets (even money) and he's not getting even money odds on his draw.

I've never tried to explain this before, so I'm probably doign a crappy job, but do ou see what I'm getting at? And yes, I realize there is already preflop money in the pot and THAT is what you are trying to take down with your NL play, but I'm trying to give you another way to look at this.

Ok, how about this: How about when YOU are on the other side of this situation? Now you have the odds to draw to that same flush, right? So that particular situation is a wash. But *you* know not to draw to a gutshot, where a lot of your opponents do not. So that's where you gain an edge.

Make less mistakes than your opponents, and you'll make money in the long run.