When to make a move and other questions from a Donkey

[Hawt]

I was just wondering, in a tournament, how far short stacked do you think you need to be before you should start making some moves? For example the tournament I am in now...

Stack: largest 29575, smallest 5, average 3902
Your current position is 1799 out of 2832 (I have 1785, just lost about half my stack)
Blinds are 75/150 (roughly 12bb's)

So yeah, how far under the average stack do you think you need to be before it gets to "make a move" stage and start pushing in?

I ask this because since I am a fairly tight player, I sometimes let myself get blinded down to a point that it almost takes me out of the picture entirely. I just used this tournament I am in as an example so please feel free to elaborate on more specific things that what I listed.

On a side note: I just folded my AKs to some guy who reraised me all-in preflop and showed Aces so I am kind of proud I didn't get desperate there and just call.

Edit: Also, what do you think about playing weaker hands in the BB? If you get dealt something like KTos or A7s, etc, do you think it is a better idea to check and see if you hit (and risk being outkicked) or to raise preflop and try to push some people out?

[Penguinfan]

This is a good idea for a thread and hopefully everyone can learn something from it.

I'll throw this in, when in a tournament with THAT many players you just play rock tight until half the players are gone, which is usually in the first hour. After that you will need some cards and some luck simply because of the amount of chips in the game.

Once you get to 10x the BB I figure it's all in with a decent/premium hand or fold. You still have enough chips that it's not an auto call for the "any Ace" player and if you do get called you double up to a spot where you can wait an orbit or two for a solid starting hand with which you must come in raising. If you get called and bust out so be it, in a matter of 20 hands you would have had a pitiful stack anyway so whats the real difference?


Others will have much more/better advice I am sure.

[Talking Poker]

3 comments:

1. 10 BB is the magic number. Believe it or not, that is something I picked up from this forum. I used to let myself get shorter stacked than that, and I believe this was hurting my game. At 10 BB, it's time to going into all-in or fold mode. And remember, it is MUCH BETTER to be the one pushing all in than to be calling all in. Give your opponents a chance to fold.

2. With that said, I don't like you folding AKs with only 12 BBs in your stack. I don't know how the hand progressed, of course, but when I get that short stacked, that's a hand I'm running with, even if I have to call all in. For the times your opponent has AA or KK, so be it. But against anything else, you are a coinflip or better.

3. Don't get cute with those weaker hands in the BB. Take a look at a free flop. If you hit go ahead and push or check/raise all in (depending how hard you hit), and if you miss, let it go. Raising with those hands from the BB is just asking for trouble, IMO.

Good questions.

[Zybomb]

Read Harrington on Holdem Volume 2.......seriously it's worth the 20 bucks you'll pay for it, he's helped everyone who's read it's tournament game tremendously

10x BB is a good limit where you are pushing all in with any raise.... it doesn't mean you have to start pushing with any Ace any pair etc just yet... but if you raise 3x BB, you pretty much committ yourself to the hand so you may as well push and get fold equity

Your 'M' value (as explained in Harrington on Hold Em Vol 2) is another good way of looking at this. Your 'M' basically is a number of how many rounds you have until you are blinded out.

The best advice is BE THE ONE PUSHING. Do not CALL all in with out an EXTREMELY strong hand...even fold the best hand a few times if necessary...if you are pushing a few times uncalled, when the blinds start to really get up there, blind stealing 2-3 times is equiv. to a double up... and remember when your pushing you have 2 ways to win, by showing down the best hand or by getting everyone to fold... if you call you only have 1 way.

Harrington explains the first in rule... meaning when you have a low M (or low BBx amount) it is just as if not more important that you are the first on e entering the pot, than what your actual cards are. In fact there are many situations you should push with hands such as 95o (or any two cards) if you are first in and short, hoping to pick up blinds or if not have two live cards and be in a 60/40.

Remember in large tournaments you have to get lucky as well...

Perhaps our tournament experts ( TP, BDawg ) (Mayhem I'll include you next time for your 180 cash ) can add some more light

Edit: Apparently TP posted as I was posting... now lets see if he had anything good to say

Edit 2: As for your last question about trouble hands in the BB... I like to mix it up, and its most table dependant. If you are in the BB with K10o, you need to know your players...say there are 2 limpers, the SB and you. Will these limpers limp with hands such as KQo, QJs. KJs, AJo etc? Or would they open with these hands? If you raise how likely are you to take the pot down right there... if you are likely to take it down 2 out of 3 times, Im raising in this spot (and with any two cards also at times), ESPECIALLY if you are liekly to take the pot down with a CB bet the one time you do receive a caller.... while SHORT STACKED however it becomes a bit more difficult...I'd still raise if I think it'll take it down, but Id be overall less aggressive as you dont have room for error..... this may be a more aggressive approach than some other people like though...

[Hawt]

Thanks for all the advice guys, I'll have to try it out in the next free roll I hop in.

As for that last one, I ended up getting down to about 7 or 8 BB's and pushed all in and double up. But then a few hands later I pushed again with AKs and lost to AJ when two Jacks came on the flop and ended up about high 900's or so.

Edit: I have been getting a lot of recommendations for Harringtons book, so maybe I will skip out on depositing for the $10 tourney and go pick up them with this paycheck and work on my game some more.

[Reel Deal]

I'm in the middle of Harrington on Holdem Vol 1 and it's the best poker book I've picked-up... can't wait to get to vol. 2!