And this is what makes Pokerstars "PokerStars"

[Penguinfan]

Or as Chip would say, this is just GAY:

Raise, re-raise and re-raise all-in SHOULD tell you the 10's are a coin flip at the VERY best, but once again Poker Stars comes to the rescue:

PokerStars Game #3182578483: Tournament #15747923, Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2005/11/28 - 11:07:08 (ET)
Table '15747923 1' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Penguinfan (1905 in chips)
Seat 3: wakelaxer (1875 in chips)
Seat 4: markaa65 (1435 in chips)
Seat 5: DocRage (1175 in chips)
Seat 6: XgrifterX (3660 in chips)
Seat 7: bumper-none (2470 in chips)
Seat 9: winterer (980 in chips)
Penguinfan: posts small blind 25
wakelaxer: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Penguinfan [Kh Kd]
markaa65: raises 100 to 150
DocRage: folds
XgrifterX: raises 500 to 650
bumper-none: folds
winterer: folds
Penguinfan: raises 1255 to 1905 and is all-in
wakelaxer: folds
markaa65: folds
XgrifterX: calls 1255
*** FLOP *** [Kc 9h 7s]
*** TURN *** [Kc 9h 7s] [8c]
*** RIVER *** [Kc 9h 7s 8c] [6c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Penguinfan: shows [Kh Kd] (three of a kind, Kings)
XgrifterX: shows [Tc Th] (a straight, Six to Ten)
XgrifterX collected 4010 from pot
XgrifterX said, "sry"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4010 | Rake 0
Board [Kc 9h 7s 8c 6c]
Seat 1: Penguinfan (small blind) showed [Kh Kd] and lost with three of a kind, Kings
Seat 3: wakelaxer (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: markaa65 folded before Flop
Seat 5: DocRage folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: XgrifterX showed [Tc Th] and won (4010) with a straight, Six to Ten
Seat 7: bumper-none folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: winterer (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[Talking Poker]

Tell me again why you think the best hand preflop should always win? Cause I just don't get it. I think that would make poker really, really boring.

And you said yourself, at best, he was a coinflip. He was getting almost 2.5:1 to call, which are pretty nice odds if you think you are a coinflip. Just for kicks, let's say he put you on:

Two overcards: 60% chance
Bigger pair: 20% chance
Smaller pair: 20% chance

If that's the case, the bigger and smaller pairs was each other out, and he's getting better than 2:1 on an even money call. It's a no brainer.

Even if he put you on:

Two overcards: 50% chance
Bigger pair: 40% chance
Smaller pair: 10% chance

I don't hate the call. Without breaking it down into exact numbers, but just looking at it like I quickly would at the poker table, this tells me he's a coinflip half the time, a 4:1 dog 40% of the time, and a 4:1 favorite 10% of the time. Throw that all together and he's about .5*.5 + .4*.2 + .1*.8 = .4ish, or about 3:2 (1.5:1). With the pot laying him 2800:1200 = 2.3:1, the call is correct.

[Penguinfan]

I will not make this a long drawn out argument, but at what point does skill become a factor in the game then? You mission, should you choose to accept it is to get your chips in the pot with the best hand, correct?

At this point I do not think 10's are the best hand, nor would I even want to risk that many chips on a coin flip. Any measurable amount of skill would enable you to lay down even such a "Monster" as 10's.

Now when you donk off your chips with 10's you deserve to lose to KK every time, forget the flop made me a set as the chips were in prior to that, I guess it's just your garden variety runner-runner straight.

My question is at what point does this game become skill? By the logic above it would be right to call with 3-9 becasue I may have only AK and you are just a 2-1 dog if thats the case.

[Reel Deal]

"I guess if luck wasn't involved I would win everyone of these."

- - Phil Hellmuth

[X-Longshot-X]

You got your money in the right spot there is no doubt, i dont know if u can fault the guy for calling....what was ur table image, i assume they saw u as a rock....but what was ur image at this point....curious

[bdawg31]

If you look at the chip stacks before this hand started - that guy was in pretty good shape. I dont think i would have called this with the tens, given the preflop action and my chip-stack position. Even if i have the 'math' to barely make the call - i would wait for a better spot. If i have a chance to get all my money in as a slight favorite or if i have enough chips to wait to get my money in when i am a bigger favorite - i would rather wait for a better spot.

adding this: I guess i should say i woudl have strongly considered folding the 10s in this spot. I have been known to gamble on a hand like this from time to time - but i would have strongly considered getting off them.

[JDMcNugent7]

dude penguin i dn what your deal is but all your posts lately are only about how u get rivered and how pokerstars cheats only u. u act like there are people programming the river card to make u lose and these programmers sit there and laught at u? I know u said ur a losing player, maybe theres a reason for that, maybe u go on tilt and get all pissed off everytime u get "rivered" cuz u act like its the worst thing in the world.
i cant stand reading these pokerstars is rigged and pokerstars=riverstars no content posts from someone whos been playing and talking poker for what seems to be a very long time.

[Talking Poker]

I dunno. But it's a lot longer than one hand, that's for sure.

Maybe for you. My goal in tourneys is to win the tourney. Please note that those are two very different things. Shove your chips in with the best hand enough and you'll get knocked out eventually. I promise you that.

Agreed. I would have probably folded the TT too, but I definitely don't hate the call as much as you do.

This is where we have to agree to disagree. You think KK should beat TT 100% of the time, and I think it should beat it exactly as much as the math dictates that it should. You seem to think you should never take a bad beat for some reason, and I am smart enough to know they are a part of the game. Suck it up and move on.

Please explain this to me. Seriously, show me how you could ever have the math to call with 93 here.

[chrisash]

now this just goes to show some hands are just pure luck lol
ecspeaily preflop

sorry bout the beat penguinfan
that really hurts

[Penguinfan]

Based on the woulda, coulda, shoulda math earlier and the fact there was 2780 chips in the pot and he only had to call 1255 he was getting better than 2-1 on his money and 3-9 is only a 2-1 dog against AK, so the call with 3-9 is correct.

What the math leaves out is you should try to put your opponent on some sort of range of hands, while I was playing my big hands very agressive I was not in all that many pots so rags should be out of the question.

KK vs 10 10 all in pre flop is a bad beat and thats the title of this part of the forum, right?

[JDMcNugent7]

u sure sound alot like matusow and that nice little quote u got as ur sig. lately.

[Talking Poker]

In my example, I put the opponent (you) on a range of possible hands. In yiur example, you are saying that you are 100% sure that the opponent had AK, which is obviously incorrect. So I don't see how we are comparing apples to apples here.