Eliminating the shortstack. Chip leader’s responsibility?

[BPRescue]

Just played another Tournament last night where I placed 2nd. In the end, we were both back and forth a couple times until I finally had him down to twice the BB. He goes all in, while on the SB, I call with an A-2 unsuited. He wins and proceeds to bludgeon me until I finally have to go all in on a K-Q suited. He wins with a 3-8 unsuited and ends up with trips. Doh!

Early in on this tournament I took the chip lead and for the most part kept it until the end. I would be down, but quickly get them back. I did run into some issues however that really irritated me. When a player was short stacked, I seemed to be the only one who would call his all in, even when it would have been for 20% of another players chips for them to call. This is where I feel I lost the tournament as I tried to murder #3 (with just us 3 left) 3 times and he doubled up 3 times… Granted one of those hands were horrible and I held a 2 6, but I was BB, he was on the SB and all in for less than 1 bet. After he won that pot with a mediocre hand, I was now first to act and grabbed an A10 suited and raised 2 bets which he re raised putting him all in again and won with a lesser hand. After the third time he did this when I held and lost with 9 9, I let # 2 (but much closer to me now), know that I expected him to assist. From my perspective, with the blinds as big as they were, if #3 were to steal them as # 2 was allowing, and finally grab a hand, he could be back in the game. I believe #2 was just hanging back hoping I would knock the guy out with no risk to himself.

Anyway, throughout the tournament I did in fact put out quite a few people, however not as many as I should have in my view. Just about every hand I had when put in this position was playable, and sometimes these people would go all in after I raised the pot. Every loss was all in pre-flop. To shorten the story, on all in’s where I held decent cards and felt I had to call, and almost every time had better cards, I lost 8 times. Quite frustrating when I pair my K, the guy holds 1 club and hits running cards to grab the flush. I understand this is poker, however question if I should have been calling the all in. Keep in mind, all of these were on the short stack and in almost every occurrence they were on the SB or BB. At this point, I felt I had to call when otherwise I likely would have folded.

Tonight I am going to look at my statistics, however know that I was hurt badly with calling all in’s, again when people were short stacked and had far less chips than I. At the same time, I am not at all upset and not applying blame to this part of my game, especially given it was the only place I seemed to get hurt. I know head to head is tough and it only takes one hand to lose it all… I am just trying to determine if I should be so inclined to help people exit the game…

What are your views?

Thanks!!!

[badblood44]

In Harrington's second book, he talks about how people with very small M-ratios have to literally push any chance they get - especially in an unraised pot.

I think in your specific instance, you made correct choices, but just came out on the wrong end of it. It's not necessarily your responsibility, but you should be making decisions based on your pot odds and the range of hands your opponent may have.

Given their short stacks, that range of hands is quite large and usually calling with any two is also the proper move.

[Talking Poker]

Interesting topic.

It sounds to me like you got your money in either with the best hand or when you were pot committed to do so (like when you were in the BB and it's hardly any more for you to call a guy's all in bet). This is correct play.

I certainlt don't think it's the chip leader's "responsibility" to go after the short stacks though. That's personal preference. The middle stacks should be making those same plays (getting their money in with the best hand, calling with anything when the pot is laying them the correct odds, etc), but to each their own. That is how to play good poker, but if someone wants to play passively and go ahead and get blinded down, hoping to squeak into second place, so be it. That's their choice. It's a terrible strategy, IMO, but I welcome it when people do it.

Ganging up on shortstacks isn't allowed, so be careful about your table talk. If some guy folds his BB to an all in raise that's say a half a BB more for him to call, this is a really bad play, and while I think you could let him know you think he made a bad play after the fact, I don't think it's ok for you to educate him DURING the hand, telling him he has to call, etc. One player per hand, ya know? Just something to be aware of, so you don't get hit with some goofy penalty someday at a crucial time in the tourney...

[MAYHEM45]

I agree with what TP said, passive play short handed is terrible. I eat these players alive, because I know if agression is shown, I am beat and can fold. Team play to knock the short stack out is unacceptable as well. However both other players, if they know anything about poker should want those shortstacks chips for when it gets down to two. If the other big stack does not understand this concept, start pushing him around too. He'll get the message quick. Im raising every hand I play in this spot, putting the other player to the decision to end his tournament life or not.

[BPRescue]

Thanks for your responses.

In being the leader, I did not “believe” it was my obligation, but was baffled as to why nobody else was calling when clearly the party almost had to go all in or was making a desperate attempt to steal a pot. I was just a bit put off that others were not playing the odds and in my view the way the hand should be played. Early on, I attributed it to less talented players, but when this continued throughout the tourney, I was surprised. Why does this not happen when I am short stacked and trying to make some dough…??? ;-)

Actually, maybe I cannot complain since as a result of their play; I became a bit more aggressive and took many pots without going to a showdown. I did expect a trap at some point but it never came.

On another note, Talking Poker had made a comment in regard to communicating before the #2 player made his decision and I want to clarify that I did not make the statement until after I lost the hand. I did make the comment “Must have had a horrible run of cards not to be helping out huh?” Is this still deemed as unacceptable? I have read that multiple calls on a short stacks all in (at the final table) is tactic as well and thought it to be an unwritten understanding between players if will. I have also heard people apologize to others after the short stack doubled up saying they should have been in the pot. In any event, I am glad to know I was out of line…

Actually this is odd for me as I will normally keep my mouth shut unless I am trying to grab information on a huge hand. That is a rarity as well as I am nowhere near good enough to do anything other than shoot myself in the foot. Someday, I would love to be able to extract information while being a cool and collected as Negreanu, but for now, I have no business doing any of that crap outside of my head.

[Talking Poker]

Sounds like what you said was perfectly fine.

P.S. I'm glad you've found our forum.