Blinds - When to chop? Also funny bad-beat.

[BPRescue]

I have played quite a bit of back yard poker, however in the past year have really been getting into hold’em. I recently started to play tournaments and sit-n-go’s at a couple local casinos as well as online. In 8 local tournaments, I have been in the money 4 times (3rd two of those) and won once. I was quite scared since it was my first head to head, but instinct and all those books took over with me playing what I believed to be solid and working the opposition over. Ok, I am sure tiny bit of luck was involved. ;-) Nonetheless, I was very happy with my play. I didn’t help that the bonehead tried to buy my large bet by going all in on his Q-7 off suit when I had and A-Q suited.

I really enjoy no limit, therefore try to stay away from limit, since in the low limit games in my area, you seem to get people in pots who should not be there and or chasing to the river no matter what they have and what you bet… At the same time, I have played just to get in the game and as long as I stay fairly tight most of the time, but still mixing it up on occasion, do Ok.

In the instance in question, I was in a 3-6 game where everyone was extremely tight, with exception to my new buddy. I was on about the 8th round of blinds and on the BB, when the gentleman (my new buddy) to my right asked me to chop. Other players have been doing this, but I guess with my no limit mindset, I found it to be ludicrous. Anyway, this was the third time the entire table folded to leave us two. The other two times, he raised once and called the other. So, here we are. He asks to chop, I look at my pocket aces and say, I would rather play. The guy obviously bites his lip, pauses and tosses his cards down in disgust. Directly thereafter, the dealer lashes at me stating I should have chopped, and gave me the riot act about how I can piss off the entire table. I asked the dealer, “Did you look at what I had”? He said, “I don’t care if you had pocket aces, if a player asks you to chop, you should chop!” Now again, I am fairly new in a sense I have only really gotten the bug in the past year playing seriously, however really impressed at how well I am doing in tournaments and quick games. I have a lot to learn, but I am not the idiot who chases 10-2 offsuit to the river when others are betting into me. At the same time, I did not hesitate to see a flop, when I had some fairly typical BB hands. In other words, I was there to play. So the pot may not have been $60. Making up a few rounds of lost blinds in my book is not a bad thing. In fact the first time he called I raised with a lowly 9-J off suit and made him fold. Anyway, I was a bit put off that he felt he could request this of me after he put me in twice. In my mind, he would not hesitate to play the blinds if he had a decent hand, but expected me to fold when he had trash. Again, I was happy to play as there is strategy here as well.

I obviously did not like a lashing from a dealer when it came to a money game. I am here to win it, not split it when my buddy feels his hand is not good enough to play. It ended up bothering me, affecting my play so I ended up moving to another table. At the same time, after he did this to me, he lashed at another player for getting a little excited and picking up his chips to bet before it was his turn. I of course did not mind this, because it gave me more information in regard to the hand. Anyway, this dealer obviously had a chip on his shoulder. I did however begin to think about it and wonder what I should do next time I am in this situation. Every time I sit down at a poker table, do I ask the guy to my right if he wants to chop?

On a funny note, the only reason I hit this table is because I got knocked out of the tournament rather quickly, uh, shall I say the first hand? Another story in itself and I am not one of those all-in guys that you always run into. My problem is that I was up against someone who was… Since we are here, here is my bad beat… Blinds 10/20, I am on the BB. I get A-10 suited. Obviously not a monster, but I like to get my feelers out and be a little aggressive when the blinds are small, but not out of control and the hand was playable. I have seen that many people like to see flops early on and therefore will try to take advantage of it. So, it goes around the table with 4 people, including the small blind limping in. I bet $100. Everyone folds, except the small blind who hesitates and reluctantly calls. So, I put him on either a very low pair, or high card low kicker, etc. Flop comes, A-K-2 rainbow. Damn, back door flush a small possibility. But fairly happy about the Ace and my above average kicker, and my thought that betting into him would certainly make him fold. I bet $200. He now removes the chip from his cards, plays with them, looks at them, and again reluctantly calls. I instantly put him on the Ace and a low kicker as why the heck would he call me with a King when I just made two bets and was not in fear of the Ace. He would never call with low pair here, right? I know people are tight, but just knew he was not slow playing me. So, 4th street comes with a 9. I felt great about the 9, and bet $200 again. Ok, buddy, clearly I am going to make you pay all the way, right?. Again, reluctance and I can almost taste doubling up. He calls. To myself, I am thinking, what is he doing? He calls my preflop of a good bet after he limps in. I would have expected him to come over the top of me sooner had he been slow playing me. What gives? Is this guy an idiot? So, here comes the river. 5. I quickly realize he could not have a strait, nor a flush. He could have 2 pair, but if I am correct with his low kicker, he did not pick that up. So, I put in $400, believing he must know I have the best hand. Here is comes, and hind site I should have given more pause. Instead, I push in my chips calling his all in over the top of me. While pushing in my chips, I said, “you pair that small kicker?…” I was sure that I was on him and did not give that 5 the respect it deserved. It turns out that I was correct. He had the Ace, and the low kicker, a 5. So he paired his kicker on the river. I called so quickly because though I put him on a low kicker, the 5 did not enter my mind. I figured when I bet on the flop, it ruled out the 2, but by this point, was deep within my ego and going against what I told my wife a few minutes earlier to fight the early all in call unless you have the nuts. So, I leave the table, and the comment was made, “There is always one”. Which I know to be true, but I will not believe I am that one. Oddly enough the dealer came to my defense and said, “you should all breathe easier because he read that hand like a book.”. I know this because my wife drew the same table, though nobody knew we were together. She told me later, oh right after she said “ What the hell were you doing! You told me not to call it unless I had the nuts? I could not believe what I was seeing!..”.

Yeah, me neither. Well I have revisited in my mind many times. Oddly enough, I was not as upset as I would have expected. Knowing I read him perfectly really made me happy and I felt I had the best hand. In doing so however, I lost the edge and the realization the becon should have alerted on the river, I should have thought about it and even sat back and watched him for a moment, or maybe asked the question, rather than making the comment in regard to his low kicker. So, now I question if I bet too low pre-flop. I wanted some action though, and knew that if the flop was unfavorable, or I saw something I did not like I would tone it down and or fold to a reraise. So, I beat on myself a little bit as I made a couple mistakes. Maybe I should have bet more pre-flop. And I really should have taken a break after he went all in. I just did not believe he was slow playing me. Ah well, not the worst beat in history, but a good one to learn from. I had the better hand, played better and was simply outdrawn. Not the first time. The patience I typically exude was in a quick moment deleted by my ego.

[PShabi]

Okay, I only got through half. Dinner's ready.

#1 - Welcome to the board

#2 - If you don't chop, he's going to fold anyway. In some situations you need to just go with the flow of the table. You don't want people to think you're tight or a solid player. You want action. It probably would have been alright to chop, but I don't fault you for saying no thank you.

#3 - Depending on my mood I do one of two things about this dealer. First option is to immediately ask for the floor supervisor and explain that you don't appreciate being berated at the table by a dealer.

My other option would be to look square at him and say, "Why don't you go over to the break room and fuck yourself for a little while."

I rarely play live cash games but when I do, I'd love for a deaelr to start some shit like this. Give me a reason to go off on someone.

Either option, the rest of the night(or as long as he's on the table), I would've scooped every last chip from the pot and stacked 'em up while looking right at him. I would've licked my fingers after the last chip hit the stack too.

I may have even fake tipped him a few times. You know reach out and give him the old "psych!"

If the dealer's don't pool tips, I would've tipped the next dealer as he came in for the change. Before he dealt and so the other dealer could see.

If they pool tips, I'd be sure to let EVERY dealer that came to the table know the reason they were getting no tips from you that evening.

[eejit101]

welcome! You were right not to chop chat, its a choice, not an unwritten rule of poker. If you have a good hand, tell him no i dont want to chop, hell call, and so on. I got to the end of that post, and am shocked if you wrote all that! Its too neat and proper! But 5x the BB on the first hand is a lrage bet, no need to bet more, i would have bet continual $100 into the pot thought, gives yourself some outs if he does hit, and you can easily recover. The call of the all in on the river was a bad play. He was either slow playing AA or KK or other trips on you, and there was noway hed do that with the worst hand in the first hand of a tourney. Yes you read it well, which was good, but if you read it that well then why did you call? AT is not a great hand, and with that board, and the flat calling, you had to check the river or bet low, then think, and fodl to the all in. Keep your seat. (I have a feeling that TP and others are gonna disagree)

[Talking Poker]

Welcome to the forum!

Good reply, pshabi. Harsh, but gets the message across.

If is your right to not chop if you don't want to. If someone asks me to chop the first time the situation arises, I usually will, but if they play 2 or 3 hands and then want to chop with their garbage, cards, no way. I would have asked him why he didn't want to chop the first few times around.

As for the dealer abuse, there is no excuse for that. I'd tell him that once, and then I'd tell the floor the second time.

[PShabi]

In my limited B&M experience, I've had a few situations where arrogant dealers really rubbed me the wrong way.

But a part of me really enjoys public confrontation.

I don't go out looking for trouble, I'm not like that at all. But I get a kick out of putting someone in their place when the situation arises.

I've done it to 1 dealer, a couple waiters/waitresses, a bartender or two, etc. I really get nasty with credit card people, but that's on the phone. Have you ever tried to cancel a credit card? They WILL NOT let you off the fucking phone!!!!

Anyway, I just like the surprised look on their face when I tell them where to put it without mincing words. People just aren't used to others being really direct and blunt without reservation.

[eddo31]

i didnt read the whole original post, as i think i got all the info that i needed when you said that this scenario had happened three times already, and that this was the first time that the player had asked to chop.

if you chop, then you should chop every time. if not, then never ask. you cant chop in selective situations and then be mad about it when the other player declines.

the dealer should have absolutely no say in the matter. this is completely unprofessional.

when i play live i am inclined to chop if it is the common practice. it is worth it in my mind to avoid the rake and in order to stay friendly with the other players.

[PShabi]

Yes, staying friendly is very important in the loose b&M games.

[ChipFish]

He played you twice, then wanted a chop on the third?
I think Pshabi left out the part where you should have whipped out your cock, flopped it on the table and told him he can have his blind back after he finishes you off.

[PShabi]

If Chip and I were ever in the same city, all hell would break loose.

You guys better hope that doesn't happen, awright?

[PShabi]

I'd definitely tip in this situation btw.

[Talking Poker]

LOL

[eejit101]

rofl

[JDMcNugent7]

Wait, I'm not old enough to go to casinos.
What did this guy want to chop ?
SOunded to me like wanted to chop blinds at a $3/$6 table, which sounds to me to be the stupidest thing i ever heard so i hope thats not it.
Was it a tourny ?

I dont get it.

[Talking Poker]

I'm in the SB. You're in the BB. Everyone folds to me. Rather than us fight it out head to head over blind money, I say, "Chop?" If you nod, we pull back our blinds and the next hand gets dealt. In theory, we should do this before looking at our cards.

That's what he's talking about.

[JDMcNugent7]

I cannot beleive people do that. It's freakin $6. Can't they just play ?

I'm glad theres no dumb rule where you can do that on the internet.

[Zybomb]

Its just a polite way of letting the action go on.... there is no money besides the blinds in the pot, so you dont stand to win much often, which is why people will do it

I agree though no shot Id chop here...., the situation comes up twice, he raises my blind, then the third time looks at his cards and asks to chop? Crazy.......

[JDMcNugent7]

this is limit or NL where they are talkin about the chop ?
If limit i guess i can understand if NL i still think its just stupid.

[Zybomb]

It works in both NL and Limit. Think about it though...even in NL we'll assume 3 6 blinds.... we'll go with a typical online structure, though it isnt this way in casinos, and say everyone has an average of 600 on the table. Its folded to the blinds...if the SB calls theres 12 in the pot. (roughly 1/50th of a players stack) The flop comes... are you really gunna bluff at such a small pot? Most likely someone takes a stab and takes it down, as its not worth playing back at a stab because you have nothing invested and the pot is so small. Its unlikely to have much action.... so its jus like a thing amoungst players so it can go on and the action can be found.... obviously in a case where a player looks at his cards and raises 2x then the third time looks againa nd says hey lets chop, its ridiculous

[JDMcNugent7]

ya i guess it makes sense now. I didnt understand it because Ive never played in a casino.
On the internet you can win a whole players stack though even if just heads up. In live play i can see where this would be much more difficult.

[Zybomb]

right -- and that all goes back to the point that

1. Although there are plenty of fish in casinos, it will never be equivilant to those online. and

2. Pressing a button on your computer that says call if a hell of a lot easier than putting a 100 dollar bill (or a chip you paid 100 dollars for) into the pot

[ReCurve]

great thread. It's nice to knock out that "NEW" thing you learn everyday, early in the afternoon for a change.