Preferring to play with "good" players...

[Talking Poker]

Someone mentioned this in another thread and people though he was crazy. He eventually came around and decided he was crazy too. But I'm not so sure.

For what it's worth, in big tourneys, I prefer playing with good players too. Why? Because it takes just ONE lucky suckout and I'm out. Yes, I realize that most of the time, I will accumulate a lot of chips in those hands, but I won't win them all. And after than inevitable one big suckout, I'm out of the tournament (see my WCOOP, for examples). Against pros, it's much easier to get in their head... maybe not to read them completely, but you can at least rule out the ridiculous stuff (he likely didn't call a PFR with Q4, so I know he doesn't have such and such).

More importantly, I can make moves on pros and actually have them work. I can represent something and get respect for it. Bad players aren't capable of realizing what I might have, so it goes over their head and they call with their Ace high or whatever (which beats me when I am on a stone cold bluff).

It really all comes down to that "Levels of Poker Players" thing I wrote about ages and ages ago. Here's a quick refresher of the 5 Levels, as I see them:

1. Knowing what you have.
2. Knowing what your opponent has.
3. Knowing what your opponent thinks you have.
4. Knowing what your opponent thinks you think he has.
5. Knowing what your opponent thinks you think he thinks you have.

In theory, it goes beyond this, but Level 6 is literally beyond my comprehension. At least today. Against very bad players (Level 1 players or in theory, Level 0 players), it's not possible for me to play at even Level 3, because my opponent would have to be at Level 2 for me to do so. See?

I'd say I'm a solid Level 4 player now, honestly. Well, maybe not "solid," but I'm definitely beyond Level 3, and against good players in the right circumstances, I am capable of being at Level 5.

For the sake of simplicity, let's say I am a Level 3 player. Because of this, it's going to be easier for me to play with Level 2 players than it is Level 1 players. If my opponent doesn't even know what he has, how in the world am I going to be able to figure out what hand he's putting ME on, when that thought hasn't even crossed his mind? It's just not possible, and in a big tourney situation, I think that's very important.

Regarding limit cash games though, I'll play with the fish all day long. Yes, they will hit their miracles here and there, but I will pound them in the long run by making less mistakes. This goes for NL too, but it's less clear and requires more reloading. In the long run though, it's still true.

[lightfungus]

I agree. Thats why I am severely impressed with PokerNovice's cash in stud. I just don't know how you guys get past these freaks sometimes. In fact, thats how my cash games at home are, I have to revert to "know what hand you have" poker.

[Talking Poker]

You said stud, but you meant limit, right?

You have to play well, of course, but you have to get lucky (and/or avoid being UNlucky) too.

[Reel Deal]

I think, obviously, a lot of this depends on the game. In a tournament where the blinds keep increasing you can't just play ultra-tight and you're forced to make a move or you'll get eaten up by the blinds. In that setting I'd rather face good players for the reasons you stated TP. In a ring game though, I like to have a loose maniac there where I can just wait him out, hit a monster and take all his money. So, as is usually the case with poker, it all depends.

[Talking Poker]

That's pretty much what I said... for big tourneys, I prefer better players. For cash games, I prefer bad ones. The more donkeys, the better. You know, like the moron who just called me down with his 44 (I had KK) only to spike his 2 outer on the river.

[Reel Deal]

Good proof of this is the monthly home game I've been playing in... I now know these guys well enough that I know who I can and can't put a move on. Our September game was my most succesful to date (grossed $260 - $80 buy-in), we played 4 SnGs (8 players) and I won the first 2 and came in second in the last 2! The scary thing was that I damn near won all four! When I was heads-up in the 3rd game I had a slightly smaller stack than the other guy and after a few hands we both went all-in after the flop and I was way ahead in the hand, he then goes runner-runner to beat me. During heads-up in the 4th game I again had a smaller stack, but not by a lot, and again got the other player to go all-in when I was ahead, he then hit's a 4-out gut-shot on the river.

The other highlight of the night was when I wasn't in a hand and there were two guys left and one of them went all-in after the river. I looked over at the guy that was struggling to decide whether to call the all-in and said, "he's got A-10, so if you can't beat that lay it down." The guy that went all in looks over at me and I could see his eyes get bigger, the other player does fold and the guy that went all-in shows... A-10. He then says, "shit, how'd you know that?" I just smiled and said nothing. It is nice to "know" the guys you're playing with.