You are a bad player. Trust me on this.

[Talking Poker]

You guys can't seriously tell me you would rather play at a table full of players who are better than you so you can be on the dork side of bad beats, than play with a table full of morons, take your beats in stride, but make a fortunae in the long run, can you? I mean, you can't seriously be telling me that.

There are "TONS of idiot players" online, and you are using this as a reason to NOT play online??? Has this place turned into Bizarro-Forum???

[junYUN]

well its not that... its just that there are as many fish at the casinos i hit up (to scale obviously... theres not 60k of them wandering around).. and it seems my cards hold up better. it's kinda like how in bull durham he says "if you think this is whats making you run good, then it is."

online poker just seems to fuck up the odds!

ODDS FUCKER UPPERS

[Penguinfan]

No, this is not the problem, the problem is, and I am 100% certain this is the case:

THERE IS NO LONG TERM IN ON-LINE POKER!

There I have said it, the truth is out!

There is only a never ending series of short runs in on-line poker. Every session/tournament is independant of itself and you can make the right decision time after time and still come out on the losing end of things. This is why nobody can say how many hands the long run is, because it doesn't exist.

Best case scenario, keep making the right decisions and hope it works out for you.

[johnp158]

Jebus!

Has anybody here ever taken any psychology or stats classes? Of course they're independent events, whose outcome has no bearing on the next event. But when you take a large collection of independent events, STATISTICS RULE. The cards that come are random, which doesn't mean that it will always look random. If you see a KKK flop, you might say, "Well how could that be random?" But those patterns are bound to occur, and WILL inevitably occur at times, if it is in fact random.

In a similar vein, you will notice every time that your aces get cracked, or somebody draws out on you when you're dominated. Of course it happens, and of course you notice it. We call that the confirmation bias, in which you seek out information that confirms your beliefs. How often does it really stick out when you raise PF with AA or KK, flop comes unders, you bet, the guy folds, and you win a small pot? Pretty ordinary, so it doesn't stick out.

So I maybe strayed from the point, but this is the gist: A series of "short runs" = "the long run." So I don't understand the logic here.In a series of independent events, when things happen that are statistically improbable, events will INEVITABLY regress to the mean, or to the most likely outcome. If you really look at long-term results with an objective eye, you'll see that things happen as probability dictates.

Cheers,
JP

[jillaj]

This is starting to get comical. I guess the people that continually make money online are just lucky. Getting better and improving your game must be a waste of time. By the sound of it from a few of you wearing the same "lucky" shirt all the time is better than being a sound player.

[Zybomb]

The main difference I think in online play is this.

It is much easier to press "Call" and call bets that you shouldnt then actually put in money. It just doesnt feel as real.

Because of this there are more bad beats, (and also more ways to make more money when you hit, or force someone to pay the wrong odds to draw...like they say tho, you remember all the times your AA or whatever gets outdrawn, but dont remember very many if any of the times it holds up as it should)

The only problem with this type of play is it takes away/limits many weapons from your arsonal (steal raises, continuation bets, probe bets just to name a few) and forces you more to extract the most when you think you have the best hand and the least when you dont -- this could lead to losing sessions when you simply dont catch cards to compete, or your good PF hands (AQ AK etc) simply miss on the flop.

Overall though you shouldnt want people to play like idiots -- it just sucks when they get lucky.

[Talking Poker]

Thank you.

As I like to say so often in life: "It's just math."

[Talking Poker]

Typo, right?

The other reason I think online players are often worse than B&M players is because they are less embarrassed. A brand new player who has never played before may be too intimidated to walk into a poker room and lose all their money while trying to learn the game, for fear of looking stupid. But in the faceless world that is the internet, it's easy.

Add in how many more hands per hour you can get in online, especially if you multi-table, and then throw in the significantly reduced rake and you can't go wrong.

I could play in a live game 7 days a week here, and once in a while I do - for both the social aspect of it and to work on reading players and looking for tells - but for the most part, it's much more profitable for me to play online.

[PShabi]

I think the whippets are going to your head, I really do.

I don't know where you play live games but the live limit hold'em down here is 5-6 players seeing a capped flop a good portion of the time. When I used to go, I'd be the only one folding preflop. Yes, nine to the flop.

I still made money.

[PShabi]

No, it's the losers who are just "unlucky." Get it right.

[Zybomb]

Yes definately typo -- you should

[BlibbityBlabbity]

Being able to adjust to the skill of the players you are sitting with is really what a lot of this boils down to. I think that is also implied in TP's first post on this thread.

If you read a book or two about how to crush play proper high limit strategy and then sit down at a $.50/$1 table and employ that strategy, guess who will lose money in the long run?

Without the experience that fills in the blanks before you get to higher limits, you will be throwing money away making plays that at pots when you are likely in a game full of calling stations.

This is why the "how you played AA" comes into play. There are many inventive ways to play AA when you are going to be heads up in a pot and need to disguise the strength of your hand to get the most out of it. But, if you will likely have 6-8 players in the hand with you if you "smooth call" with it from EP (vs only 4-6 if you raise with it inEP ) you are doing yourself a disservice by calling. Once you get a few players to limp behind you, getting them to get out of the way is next to impossible.

It is VERY hard sometimes to look long term in games full of crappy players. I have played at tables I KNEW were goldmines and busted out 2-3 times before I proceeded to take it all back from the 2-3 players who were just giving it away. The key is to find a way NOT to go off because "that moron called wit that flush draw when he didn't have the odds...." and just keep waiting for situations to put him back in that same situation again....and again....and again.....

Seems like there are two fairly distinct sides to this discussion. IMO, while there frequently seems to be a target planted on your forehead (bad luck), just keep it level and keep looking for players putting money in the middle in bad spots.

Maybe some of you who seem down should keep notes on your play All the time. Have you ever been on a good run? Write it down, start a blog, etc.

So much of poker at some level comes down to attitude at the table and internally that sitting down waiting for a suckout will just tear you up.

[Zybomb]

While playing in a tournament last night, I came across an example of what I was trying to say earlier, how the one downfall of playing with idiots, is it takes so many weapons out of your arsonal.

We were playing a very unorthodox blind structure of 50 starting chips, 1/2 blinds which were raised every half hour -- needless to say one hand could really hurt you (a standard raise and a CB is more than 1/5 your chips if it fails)

Blind were up to 2/4 -- I have 48 chips and Im dealt AJo. A player limps, and a player directly to the right of me makes a largish raise to 16. This player was definately a bad player, but he was aggressive, and I knew he had been raising with trash all night. A reraise all in here should take down the pot which is as big as half my stack here. So I do just that, and against someone normal this would of worked, but apparently K6s was enough to warrant a call here, the burn card is a jack (flipped up) , the flop and turn blanks, the river a 6.

The issue with fish is yea technically I know Im ahead here so I guess I "want" him to make the call -- but I really dont. I want to win the pot right there. I dont wanna go into some no skill drawout where Im a slight favorite. In fact if he showed me his hand and said Im calling your raise if you raise, Id probably fold -- I can pick a much better spot. I made the raise to pick up the pot because I thought it would (and it should have)

[Talking Poker]

Yet another example of single hand not holding up. And it's not like it was that unlucky, anyway. You were like a 60/40 favorite. I don't like to gamble (and I do consider that gambling) for all my chips, but in a game like that, there are plenty of people who do. So like you said, wait for a better spot. Sure, it removes a weapon from your aresonal. So what? Just adapt your game to fit the circumstances. Wait until you have a big pair to make that play, since you know you are going to get called. Or else just throw it away and avoid big pots like you know you should in that game.

I'm willing to bet that if you have kept records, you are well ahead in that game.

[Zybomb]

I think you misunderstood -- I wasnt saying that it was unlucky -- in fact I said if he told me he was gunna call if I pushed and then showed me his cards, I would of just folded to his raise. I made the play because itd increase my stack by over 50% and I knew he was weak and probably would (and should of) folded to the raise. I was just pointing out an instance where bad players limit the things you can do. (such as make this play, instead I would of had to fold to the raise. Or do a little stop and go without a pair on him -- that would of been funny lol) Its especially annoying in a game with such an odd blind structure, where you are forced to make moves

The adapt to your game part is dead on though. I think thats the single most important thing you can do in any tournament / cash game.

[bdawg31]

LOL

[ChipFish]

As Previously discussed TP....

Can you pick the player in this thread who is LOSING currently?
Some of this is just plain silly.

[junYUN]

i disagree. i think you get a lot of people that go to casinos for the "fun" aspect.. and there are (just like pshabi said) tons of no-fold-em-hold-em games that i play in all the time. people dont notice that i fold a lot and/or dont notice when i raise a pot.. they're mostly paying attention to their hole cards + their cocktail + the skinny blonde across the way.

i just feel less "screwed" when i play live. whether or not its all completely random and i just happen to be getting better sessions live.. but it just seems less "screwy" to me.. dont hate!

[2Tone]

We should be beyond this by now. Johnp’s is an excellent post, but should be common knowledge to all serious players. I play poker because it is a beatable game if I make better decisions than my opponents. I don’t play slot machines, because it is not. On any given night, I might lose a bundle playing poker, and some guy is going to hit a jackpot on the slot machine. But, in general, the more hours I play poker, the more money I have. The more hours I play slots, the less I have.

Duh.

It’s interesting to me that TP’s original post spun the thread in this direction, because I think the two topics are related. When I’m grinding away at my 2/4 tables, I’m not playing a very sophisticated game. I’m rarely bluffing, I’m rarely slow-playing. I’m betting when I have it, folding when I don’t, chasing when it makes sense. I’m not all that ‘good’ a player, but I don’t need to be, because my opponents are worse.

[johnp158]

Yes! Finally I know where to come for validation of my fragile self-image!

[Talking Poker]

I'm not even sure how we got here. This "direction" wasn't at all the intent of my original post. This was:

[badblood44]

To me, getting better at poker is about two things.

1. Managing your psyche during the inevitable losing streaks. You really need to have a consistent game, whether you're winning or losing.

2. Recognizing the fact that you can play bad poker and win, and play good poker and lose. Also, recognizing the difference in your own play in each circumstance and be willing to admit that while some losing was due to bad luck, some was also due to bad play.

[Quint]

Bad compared to who? what level? I quit playing golf because no matter how much I tried I stopped getting better (and it stopped being fun). I was shooting in the upper 80's, lower 90's for years and never could reach the next level. I never considered myself a good golfer, but I consistently beat the group of guys I played with. Someone, a pro or a club owner, once told me that 90% of the players out there never legitimately break 100. But they can't build courses fast enough for all of these bad golfers.
Most poker players will never reach the success of the guys you see on TV, but those guys probably represent the top 1% or less of all poker players. The fact that you read and participate in a forum such as this shows that you have the desire to improve and will probably be a successful player even if you never become a great player. I pissed away a lot of money (for me) making small deposits and losing it all in a night, a week, or a month playing full table ring games. I started reading books and forums before I deposited any more money. I switched to playing Sng's and I haven't had a losing month in six months. I don't consider myself a great, or even good, player. But I've found a niche in which I can be a successful player.
I'd still like to move up in buy-ins and learn to be successful in higher limits, ring games, and games other than hold'em. For now I'm happy playing in, and making money in SnG's until I can afford to take those jumps.
Set long term goals. Play within your means (bankroll). Have fun.

[Talking Poker]

In case anyone wasn't aware, the title of my original post was just to get your attention (which I think it did, based on the number of responses in this thread).

The point was that I don't think most poker players (including winning players and even top pros) are as good as they think they are...